Confused!

[TashaN]

How can Jesus be God, or God's human expression on earth, part of God, etc, while talking about God "the Father" as if he was another person?

'I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.' (John 20: 17).

Isn't Jesus here saying that we are just like him for sharing the same God as him?

I talked about it with ayani, but her answers didn't help alot in solving this puzzle.

I know that Christians differ in many issues, but this issue is the least thing you all should have in common, i reckon.


Thanks in advance.

 

[Katzpur]

How can Jesus be God, or God's human expression on earth, part of God, etc, while talking about God "the Father" as if he was another person?

'I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.' (John 20: 17).

Isn't Jesus here saying that we are just like him for sharing the same God as him?

I talked about it with ayani, but her answers didn't help alot in solving this puzzle.

I know that Christians differ in many issues, but this issue is the least thing you all should have in common, i reckon.


Thanks in advance.

Actually, we don't all have this belief in common. I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is not the same individual as His Father. Their unity of will and purpose is absolute and beyond our ability to comprehend, but they are physically distinct from one another. Jesus Christ is our Father in Heaven's Only Begotten Son. We are also God's spirit sons and daughters, but while we have biological parents, Jesus' was born of a mortal mother (Mary) and an immortal, divine Father (God). During His mortality, Jesus spoke of His Father as being His Father and also His God. He also made it absolutely clear that His Father is greater than He is.

 

[dawny0826]

My belief is that God is limitless and that He is most capable of existing as several manifestations at once. The Trinity makes perfect sense to me, is the cornestone of my faith and I no longer have the desire to defend or even try to "prove" it to anyone else.

Christ was very much God AND flesh. Not only was Christ the ultimate sacrifice for the atonement of our sins but He taught us how to commune with God in a parent/child relationship.

Who better to teach us how to live for God, then God Himself? It's really beautiful, in my opinion. God loved us so much that He comes to us, became one of us to show us through His own example, how to live for Him, how to serve others and how to abandon our will to follow Him. And then...He became the sacrifice for our sin, to show us that we must die to fully live.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

How can Jesus be God,

He's not. The biblical Yeshua said he wasn't good but his god alone was good. He said...my father and your father...(MY GOD AND YOUR GOD). This is plain and simple.

or God's human expression on earth,

John 3:34
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]For he is sent by God. He speaks God's words, for God's Spirit is upon him without measure or limit.[/FONT]

No mystery here. Their bible says that he is God's representative (Ambassador). Tis all.

part of God, etc, while talking about God "the Father" as if he was another person?

That's because to the biblical Yeshua, his god was something other than himself. This is plain to see in his long winded prayer in John chapter 17.

'I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.' (John 20: 17).

Isn't Jesus here saying that we are just like him for sharing the same God as him?

Yes....and don't let anyone tell you any different.

 

[TashaN]

Please guys, this place is for Christians ONLY to answer, and any attempt to answer things for them is a violations of DIR rules which you can find in the link below:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_new_faq_item

Read the rules please to avoid being warned by the staff.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Tashan,

this place is for Christians ONLY

Does considering Jesus to be a elder brother, qualify?

Love & rgds

 

[Mister Emu]

How can Jesus be God, or God's human expression on earth, part of God, etc, while talking about God "the Father" as if he was another person?

Because, in Trinitarian Christianity, He is.

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all different personages(hypostases), but share the same essence or being(ousia)...

 

[Katzpur]

Because, in Trinitarian Christianity, He is.

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all different personages(hypostases), but share the same essence or being(ousia)...

So, Mister Emu. In your own words, what is an "essence"? How is it the same as a "being" but different from a "person"?

 

[Mister Emu]

I would say that essence/being is what we are, and person is who we are...

 

[Katzpur]

I would say that essence/being is what we are, and person is who we are...

Would it be accurate to say that the essence of who we are is the non-physical attributes that each of us have? I am the essence of a human being, and so are you, but we are separate persons?

 

[TashaN]

Because, in Trinitarian Christianity, He is.

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all different personages(hypostases), but share the same essence or being(ousia)...

Which means we have three independent Gods?​

 

[GURSIKH]

,
'I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.' (John 20: 17).

Isn't Jesus here saying that we are just like him for sharing the same God as him?

above statement is more GODLY , DIVINE , logical .
than " I AM ONLY SON OF MY FATHER GOD"

 

[challupa]

I would say that essence/being is what we are, and person is who we are...

If the essence is God and the being is human, then what Jesus is saying is that what we are is God and who we are is human. The individualizations which we call humans would then be seperate beings coming from the sum total of all parts which is God?

 

[ayani]

Tashan ~

Jesus is clear that He and the Father are One. Jesus is clear that there is a difference between Himself and the Father, proclaiming that He does His work because of what the Father has given Him, and not by His own power. Jesus also addresses His prayer to His Father, and teaches the disciples to do the same.

yet prayer to Jesus is clearly shown in the Gospel narratives, and Jesus says nothing that would indicate that prayer to Him is not ok. within the Gospel narratives, people literally cry out to Jesus, and He helps them. they don't pray "O God, please make Jesus come over here and help me!"- rather, they cry out to Jesus Himself, and He comes and heals / saves them. this is significant. His disciples worship Him, and He does not rebuke them.

Jesus is also clear that to know Him, is to know the Father, and that through Him alone one comes to God. Jesus says, boldy, that He *knows* God. Jesus has also clearly been given by the Father control over the natural world (calming storms), the power to heal the sick and drive away evil and raise the dead, and the power to forgive sins.

Biblically, to honour Jesus is to honour the Father, the Master of the Universe, who sent Him.

here are His words :

All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. (Matthew 11:27)

I and the Father are one. (John 10:30

Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. (John 5:22-23)

All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. (Matthew 28:18)

Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. (John 14:9-11)

for a Christian, to honour Jesus is to honour God. they are One. honouring / worshipping / praying to Jesus does't anger or insult God- it delights Him when Christians give honour to His beloved Son, and believe His words concerning Himself. prayer to Jesus is Biblical, and even more significant for us because we believe He is *alive*, with us, and ready and willing to help and guide us.

 

[Mister Emu]

Which means we have three independent Gods?

No. One God, one divine being, with three personages...

 

[Katzpur]

yet prayer to Jesus is clearly shown in the Gospel narratives, and Jesus says nothing that would indicate that prayer to Him is not ok.

I agree with almost everything you've said, ayani, and believe that you expressed it very well. I do not agree with the above statement, though. In the only place in the gospel account where Jesus actually instructs His followers as to how they should pray, He specifically says, "After this manner, pray ye..." Then He begins by saying, "Our Father which art in Heaven..." He told us very directly that we should pray to our Father in Heaven.

 

[Mister Emu]

Would it be accurate to say that the essence of who we are is the non-physical attributes that each of us have? I am the essence of a human being, and so are you, but we are separate persons?

Well... I'd say that: I am in essence a human/I am a human being... I believe that both statements would mean the same thing...

 

[S-word]

How can Jesus be God, or God's human expression on earth, part of God, etc, while talking about God "the Father" as if he was another person?

'I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.' (John 20: 17).

Isn't Jesus here saying that we are just like him for sharing the same God as him?

I talked about it with ayani, but her answers didn't help alot in solving this puzzle.

I know that Christians differ in many issues, but this issue is the least thing you all should have in common, i reckon.


Thanks in advance.

Hi TashaN, I am assuming that the photo in your thread is that of your body, which is activated by the Logos to whom all the spirits of all your ancestors have been gathered in death: the 'Logos,' who is the divine animating principle which pervades the entire eternal and boundless Cosmic body, and that includes you and I. Nice looking body that the Logos created, pity that it does not reflect the ‘you,’ who is the godhead that is developing in that body.

If you were an outside observer looking at the living universal body, which is activated by the Logos, who is the divine animating principle which pervade all that the singularity of our origin has become, (Which is much the same as that body of yours that was created by and is activated by the living Logos,) you would not see the Mind or the supreme personality which is capable of comprehending the invisible mind that has developed in this universal body, ( The Most High in the creation and Lord of creatures.) The supreme personality of Godhead within the universal body which is activated by the Logos from which all things came into existence, and by whom all things came into existence and for whom all things came into existence, into who all the experiences from the dawn of time has been recorded.

The godhead who developed in the previous world which was destroyed by water, was the only exception of all mankind to have ascended into heaven without experiencing death, and according to Hebrew 11: 5, He has still not experienced death. (The unblemished, one year old sacrificial Lamb of God.) Unblemished and at the age of 365, (The number of days in a calendar year), the only man to have been redeemed from the body of Adam, which was submerged in the baptismal waters, from which the new man arose, was escorted to the throne of the Most High, (Adam the first born son of God, see Luke 3: 38) who was surrounded by glorious creatures and who held the ransom blood of righteous Abel, which could save but one man, tempted the glorious creatures by saying, “This is the one I have chosen, it is my will that Enoch stand before my face into all eternity.”

The glorious creatures then bowed before the Most High in the creation, who is the Lord of creatures and the prototype of the Lord of Spirits. Saying, “So be it according to your will.” Enoch was then stripped of his earthly garment and rubbed with the sweet smelling ointment of God that shone with the brilliance of the sun, and behold, he was as one of the glorious ones, where, girded and clothed in fire, he now stands before the most high to serve God before the body of Adam (Mankind) into all eternity.
Enoch, who was the only living spirit in the bodies of the eight on the boat, who entered the post-flood world, is the father, or the living ancestral spirit in the descendants of Noah, who dwells behind the veil to the innermost sanctuary of his tabernacle, that is the body of Mankind, (For the Kingdom of God is within you) which is soon to be superseded by the new creation on earth, the glorious and brilliant Temple of God, the new Kingdom of God on earth that flesh and blood cannot inherit. (May thy kingdom come on earth as it is in Heaven.) How many religions speak of the new being which comes from the body of mankind, (The Son of Man) people who are changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, from bodies of corruptible matter, into glorious bodies of Incorruptible brilliant Light? Who will dwell on earth and gain dominion over all life forms which have preceded the new creation.

All those ancestral cells in the body of Jesus that were quickened by the Godhead of the old world, which, after the death of Jesus, who was their compilation and godhead, were poured out as fire on the heads of those who believed the words of our Father as spoken through the mouth of his obedient servant Jesus, who did, nor spoke anything on his own authority except that which he was commanded to do and say. It is the words=spirit of Enoch the righteous, the only exception of all mankind which came down, even the Son of Man which IS in heaven, that are the foundation upon which all scripture is based, it is He, who from behind the veil to the inner most sanctuary within the kingdom of Godhead, which is within the body of the Most High in creation, speaks through all men who are obedient to their inner being, whether they be Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists etc, He is the stone that the builders of the universal church has rejected, which has turned out to be the most important stone of all.

From ‘The Book of Enoch the Prophet,’ 37: 4, “Till the present day, such wisdom has never been given by the Lord of Spirits as I have received according to my insight, according to the good pleasure of the Lord of Spirits by whom the lot of eternal life has been given me. This is verified in Genesis 5: 23-24, and Hebrews 11: 5. I will continue to answer your question in full in order that you may understand more clearly, the ‘Alpha and Omega,’ the ‘Beginning and End,’ the ‘First and the Last’ the ‘Father and Son,’ who are one, our living God. But this post is becoming too long, I will post another, when time permits.

 

[ayani]

I agree with almost everything you've said, ayani, and believe that you expressed it very well. I do not agree with the above statement, though. In the only place in the gospel account where Jesus actually instructs His followers as to how they should pray, He specifically says, "After this manner, pray ye..." Then He begins by saying, "Our Father which art in Heaven..." He told us very directly that we should pray to our Father in Heaven.

this is true, for sure. Jesus teaches us to pray to the Father specifically.

it may depend on what one calls prayer. within the Gospels, if calling out to a God-sent person with God-like powers can be called prayer, the He is prayed to. they cry out, and He hears them, and restores them. it's not like a formal prayer, but it's certainly a trusting cry for help, for a kind of help that only the God of Israel should be able to give. i'm thinking that if this were something wrong or blasphemous, wouldn't He, being the Son of God, put a stop to it?

i hear what you're saying, that Jesus teaches prayer to the Father, and not to Himself. but He doesn't explicately forbid prayer to Himself... and as He and the Father are One, and as to know Jesus and to know the Father are the same thing... it's a similar strain of unspoken assumptions based on who He says He is in relation to God, and to us. like if A is equal to B, and A can be prayed to, B can be prayed to.

 

[ayani]

and many Christians can attest that a fervet cry to Jesus for help or guidance does amazing, holy, and life-changing things. if to say "o God, save me!" is prayer, "Lord Jesus, save me!" is also prayer. if to say "Father, thank You for this beautiful day" is prayer, then saying "Lord Jesus, thank You for the new life that i have in You" is prayer.

because He has come to give us new life, He has done it, and He is alive, with us, and ready to listen and guide our hearts in response. if we believe He is truly alive, truly with us, and truly worthy of our love and devotion, prayer to Him beomes all the more remarkable. if people can pray to dead saints, dead teachers, and dead kings, how much more so to One who is alive, and not dead?