Confused!

[Katzpur]

i hear what you're saying, that Jesus teaches prayer to the Father, and not to Himself. but He doesn't explicately forbid prayer to Himself... and as He and the Father are One, and as to know Jesus and to know the Father are the same thing... it's a similar strain of unspoken assumptions based on who He says He is in relation to God, and to us. like if A is equal to B, and A can be prayed to, B can be prayed to.

Although I always direct my prayers to God the Father, ayani, I would more or less agree with what you're saying.

 

[ayani]

would you find anything disagreeable or odd about praying / talking directly to Jesus? can i ask, is it a personal preference, or a matter of church practice / teaching?

 

[Scuba Pete]

How can Jesus be God, or God's human expression on earth, part of God, etc, while talking about God "the Father" as if he was another person?

Surprisingly, we lack the concepts and language to describe a multi-dimensional being.

God is Spirit and yet Jesus was God in the flesh, or God incarnate.

I Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. NIV

This should not stop us from trying to understand these concepts, but we are hampered by our severe limitations while on this earth.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Please guys, this place is for Christians ONLY to answer, and any attempt to answer things for them is a violations of DIR rules which you can find in the link below:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_new_faq_item

Read the rules please to avoid being warned by the staff.

OOps.....I saw that after I had posted.

I'm sorry everyone.

I'll just sit back and observe.....

 

[S-word]

How can Jesus be God, or God's human expression on earth, part of God, etc, while talking about God "the Father" as if he was another person?

'I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.' (John 20: 17).

Isn't Jesus here saying that we are just like him for sharing the same God as him?

I talked about it with ayani, but her answers didn't help alot in solving this puzzle.

I know that Christians differ in many issues, but this issue is the least thing you all should have in common, i reckon.


Thanks in advance.

Jesus is just like us, a son of our indwelling Father, who was the first of many brothers to be chosen from the body of mankind, which is the Tabernacle (Tent) of God, for the kingdom of God is within you. Jesus was the first fruits and the cornerstone to the new 'Temple of Light,' the new Kingdom of God on earth which flesh and blood cannot inherit, that new being in the eternal evolving mind that is God, which being comes from mankind and is 'The Son of Man, the Most High in the creation, who, girded and clothed in fire, will serve God before the Body of Adam (Mankind) into all eternity, and who will rule the whole world, both the visible and invisible.

 

[Delamere]

The Almighty God of the Bible can do as he wills. Other religions may have a notion of the divine being in which limitations are placed. The 'god' of Islam is limited and not almighty. Why can a genuine almighty God not live as a human being?

 

[Katzpur]

would you find anything disagreeable or odd about praying / talking directly to Jesus? can i ask, is it a personal preference, or a matter of church practice / teaching?

It's a matter of Church teaching, although I seem to recall at least one instance in the Book of Mormon where the people prayed directly to Jesus. I couldn't give you a reference, though. A number of our hymns do address Jesus personally, as if in prayer, but we are taught to pray to the Father and to close our prayers "in the name of Jesus Christ," since He is our mediator with the Father.

 

[Katzpur]

The Almighty God of the Bible can do as he wills. Other religions may have a notion of the divine being in which limitations are placed. The 'god' of Islam is limited and not almighty. Why can a genuine almighty God not live as a human being?

I hate to burst your bubble, Delamere, but Christians, Muslims and Jews all believe in the Abrahamic God. Muslims and Jews don't believe He has a Son; Christians do.

 

[ayani]

yes, but not all Christians are trinitrians, though many are. i would say that the validity of our Christian faith, and our beliefs about who Christ is do not hinge solely or primarily on the specifics of a triune or unate theology of God.

 

[Renji]

Although I always direct my prayers to God the Father, ayani, I would more or less agree with what you're saying.

Hello, Katzpur! Meow

In the Christian Doctrines, isn't Jesus the Mediator between the Father and us because of our sins? Jesus said " No one goes to the Father except through me!" so if we are praying to Jesus, we are praying directly to the Father.

Peace!

 

[Jeremy Mason]

So, Mister Emu. In your own words, what is an "essence"? How is it the same as a "being" but different from a "person"?

I saw this question coming from you in another thread awhile back.

 

[Katzpur]

Hello, Katzpur! Meow

In the Christian Doctrines, isn't Jesus the Mediator between the Father and us because of our sins? Jesus said " No one goes to the Father except through me!" so if we are praying to Jesus, we are praying directly to the Father.

Peace!

Hi, Lawrence. I disgree. If Jesus had wanted us to address our prayers to Him personally, I believe He would not have explicitely stated, "After this manner, pray ye... Our Father which art in Heaven..." The fact that Jesus is our Mediator with the Father is why I close my prayers in His name. I'll have to find the verse in the Bible where we're told to do that. I don't know it offhand.

 

[Katzpur]

I saw this question coming from you in another thread awhile back.

I know. I ask it a lot, because I really do want to be able to understand it. Everybody just starts quoting from some ancient Greek philosophers and that doesn't seem to help at all. I'd like someone to try to explain it in plain, straightforward English. Dumb it down for me. I don't care.

 

[ayani]

Hi, Lawrence. I disgree. If Jesus had wanted us to address our prayers to Him personally, I believe He would not have explicitely stated, "After this manner, pray ye... Our Father which art in Heaven..." The fact that Jesus is our Mediator with the Father is why I close my prayers in His name. I'll have to find the verse in the Bible where we're told to do that. I don't know it offhand.

well, Christians are not commanded to pray to Jesus. most of my prayers are addressed to the Father. but generally, seeming as He is the author and perfecter of our faith, as He is with us always, as He is alive, and as He has declared that He is one with the Father and to be honoured with the Father, i can't see why anything should discourage or unnerve a Christian about praying / talking to Him directly if they wanted to, from time to time.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

I know. I ask it a lot, because I really do want to be able to understand it. Everybody just starts quoting from some ancient Greek philosophers and that doesn't seem to help at all. I'd like someone to try to explain it in plain, straightforward English. Dumb it down for me. I don't care.

No dumbing anything down. Three separate persons with one goal.

 

[Katzpur]

No dumbing anything down. Three separate persons with one goal.

Thanks, Jeremy, but that's not what I was referring to. It's the word "essence" specifically that confuses me and, unless I'm mistaken, other Mormons too.

 

[Katzpur]

well, Christians are not commanded to pray to Jesus. most of my prayers are addressed to the Father. but generally, seeming as He is the author and perfecter of our faith, as He is with us always, as He is alive, and as He has declared that He is one with the Father and to be honoured with the Father, i can't see why anything should discourage or unnerve a Christian about praying / talking to Him directly if they wanted to, from time to time.

I wouldn't try to discourage anyone from praying to whomever he wants. That's not my place.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Thanks, Jeremy, but that's not what I was referring to. It's the word "essence" specifically that confuses me and, unless I'm mistaken, other Mormons too.

I know and agree. The word essence can and does get used loosely. I think the reason why this word has you a little tripped-up is because the word is defined with subtle and not so subtle differences in it's definitions.

Merriam Webster

1 a: the permanent as contrasted with the accidental element of being b: the individual, real, or ultimate nature of a thing especially as opposed to its existence <a painting that captures the essence of the land> c: the properties or attributes by means of which something can be placed in its proper class or identified as being what it is2: something that exists : entity3 a (1): a volatile substance or constituent (as of perfume) (2): a constituent or derivative possessing the special qualities (as of a plant or drug) in concentrated form ; also : a preparation of such an essence or a synthetic substitute b: odor , perfume4: one that possesses or exhibits a quality in abundance as if in concentrated form <she was the essence of punctuality>5: the most significant element, quality, or aspect of a thing or person <the essence of the issue>
&#8212; in essence : in or by its very nature : essentially , basically <was in essence an honest person>

&#8212; of the essence : of the utmost importance <time is of the essence>


What I get out of this particular application of the word "essence" is the unifying and abundant qualities that all three entities of God possess.

 

[YmirGF]

Surprisingly, we lack the concepts and language to describe a multi-dimensional being.

Personally speaking, I think this is perhaps the most important thing said in this entire discussion. In some ways, it's like a water molecule. It can be a solid, a liquid or a gas, but it is still water, just the same. My own take on it is that we confuse the charactaristics for the being or essence.


Just my 1.64 canadian cents.

 

[methylatedghosts]

Personally speaking, I think this is perhaps the most important thing said in this entire discussion. In some ways, it's like a water molecule. It can be a solid, a liquid or a gas, but it is still water, just the same. My own take on it is that we confuse the charactaristics for the being or essence.


Just my 1.64 canadian cents.

Seems it's worth more than mines!!!