Confusion in just the fifth commandment and implications

[Deeje]

Against my better judgement, I will reverse what I said in my last post to you and respond.

First of all, this thread is not about me, so why have you in your last two posts made it about me instead of actually dealing with the things I wrote? But since you seem confused about my approach, I'll deal with your questions.

I don't "go through the motions of worship" because I don't worship. Since I already mentioned that in a previous post, the impression I get is that you are probably intent on demeaning me by getting a "dig" in as being some sort of hypocrite.

Sorry again metis...I am not trying to pry or to take "digs" at you...I am just interested in what makes people do what they do and believe what they believe. Your take on life and worship is rather unique, so I am just interested. Human behavior sometimes needs to be understood at a deeper level to help others know where you are coming from. I have no ulterior motives apart from curiosity, so I am sorry again if you misread my intentions. I am just trying to understand you so that if I meet others who are like minded I will have some insight...so my prodding is more about me than it is about you.

And I already explained why I attend, and I just recently mentioned to my wife that even if she were to pass away before me, I would probably still go to mass periodically. Without any explanation, she understood where I was coming from with that and why, but obviously you don't know me well enough to know why.

Having lost my own life partner of 45 years, almost 2 years ago, I think I do.

My approach to God has already been mentioned to you as I told you that you can read it in my signature statement. My "big picture" is more along the line of a scientific approach. If God made all, then all must in some way be a reflection of God, as Einstein also felt.

I have no faith in prayer per se since I don't think God, however perceived or not perceived, is going to change any world events because of me, plus there's no research that clearly indicates that prayer works. The exception is that if people know others are praying for them, there actually is some evidence to indicate that this can help-- "mind over matter" probably, but who knows for sure.

Prayer to me is an incredible privilege. I cannot get to see the ruler of my own nation for a chat about anything, but I can talk directly to the ruler of the universe without an appointment 24/7.....to unburden myself of my anxieties and to ask for strength and wisdom to cope with the problems that life always throws at us.
Most people see prayer as only asking for things....I see it more as a way to thank God for the blessings I still receive every day in spite of all the drama.

Finally, if having some politically-correct belief about Jesus is what supposedly "saves" one so as they can the go to heaven, I find that to be just so bizarre. Just because one says "I believe..." means nothing if one doesn't act on their belief in a moral manner of compassion and justice/fairness to all, imo. IOW, it's just "cymbals clashing". And I would much rather associate with a moral atheist than an immoral Christian (or Jew, or Buddhist, or...).

I completely agree. I don't think God wants performance over a sincere desire to want to know him personally. Since God hates hypocrisy, the relationship is the most important thing, not just going through the motions as some kind of 'spiritual insurance', (which I am sure is what some people do) but a heartfelt desire to know God and to please him in everything we do. A grateful heart is hard to find these days.

My apologies again....I will not trouble you further.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

A person should act on their beliefs but they should also try to prove that their beliefs are correct. God says to "prove all things". When God worked six days to create the whole universe and then rested on the seventh day and said to honor that day He did not mean you should just pick any day. If you really believe that Sunday is the seventh day then you should honor that day but most people who worship on Sunday freely admit that it is the first day of the week and then some excuse why it was changed from the seventh day to the first.

 

[metis]

Sorry again metis...I am not trying to pry or to take "digs" at you...I am just interested in what makes people do what they do and believe what they believe. Your take on life and worship is rather unique, so I am just interested. Human behavior sometimes needs to be understood at a deeper level to help others know where you are coming from. I have no ulterior motives apart from curiosity, so I am sorry again if you misread my intentions. I am just trying to understand you so that if I meet others who are like minded I will have some insight...so my prodding is more about me than it is about you.



Having lost my own life partner of 45 years, almost 2 years ago, I think I do.



Prayer to me is an incredible privilege. I cannot get to see the ruler of my own nation for a chat about anything, but I can talk directly to the ruler of the universe without an appointment 24/7.....to unburden myself of my anxieties and to ask for strength and wisdom to cope with the problems that life always throws at us.
Most people see prayer as only asking for things....I see it more as a way to thank God for the blessings I still receive every day in spite of all the drama.



I completely agree. I don't think God wants performance over a sincere desire to want to know him personally. Since God hates hypocrisy, the relationship is the most important thing, not just going through the motions as some kind of 'spiritual insurance', (which I am sure is what some people do) but a heartfelt desire to know God and to please him in everything we do. A grateful heart is hard to find these days.

My apologies again....I will not trouble you further.

No apologies necessary, and I'm truly sorry to read that you lost your life partner. Hey, you can "bother" me any time.

Take care.

 

[atpollard]

In Matthew 19:17-18 Jesus said to keep the commandments and listed some of them to show He was talking about the 10 commandments. I am constantly amazed how people read something in the Bible and then do their best to prove it does not mean what it says. keep the commandments does not simply mean love God and love one another.

So you intend to keep all 600+ Commanments of the Law?

You have not shaved or trimmed your beard?
Your cloths are not made of blended fabrics?

Read carefully, the same chapters that present the 10 commandments warn you to keep ALL OF THE LAW!
Even the NT warns that if you violate the Law on even one point, you are guilty of violating all of the law.

As a practical matter, which of the 10 commandments can I violate while keeping the commands to love God with all my heart and mind and strength, and my neighbor as my self?
I'd be interested in this theoretical plan to "show love and violate the Ten Commandments".

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

The point is that many churches teach that Jesus did away with the law. But Jesus himself said He did not come to destroy the law. So are Christians required to keep the law like Jesus said or not keep the law like the churches say? All these churches say they love Jesus and want to follow Hiim but then they do not waNT TO DO WHAT hE TELLS THEM TO DO.

 

[Acim]

Always good to keep to the letter of the Law rather than the Spirit of the Law. That is, if your goal is to get as far away as possible from Spirit.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

No, if you say you love Jesus and want to follow Him, you should want to do want He says to do instead of looking for excuses why you do not have to do what He tells you to do. If the law says you should not kill other people, is there really any difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law? In fact the spirit of the law is even stricter because if you hate someone you have committed murder in your heart or in spirit. Jesus says to keep the law. Do you believe Him or make up excuses to not do it?

 

[atpollard]

If the law says you should not kill other people, is there really any difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law? In fact the spirit of the law is even stricter because if you hate someone you have committed murder in your heart or in spirit.

You ask and answer your own question.
Yes. There is a difference between the letter and the spirit of the law.
Yes. The spirit of the law is stricter than the letter.
Yes. The spirit of the law and the prophets is fulfilled in the two great commandments that Jesus gave.
Love God.
Love your neighbor.

Obey those two things and you cannot violate any of God's MORAL law and you have no need to waste time with a ceremonial law that was not written for you.

No. Jesus did not abolish the Law, he fulfilled it ... so we don't have to.
"It is by GRACE that you are saved, through FAITH, and this not from yourself, less any man should boast, but it is the free gift from God."

Oh you foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you? ... It ain't about the law, reread Romans!

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

This sounds like picking which laws you will obey and which ones you will not. WhenJesus said. "if you love me, keep the commandments" He named some of them to show He was talking about the 10 Commandments. He did not say all you have to do is love God and love your neighbor. It is very strange that most Christians agree with nine of the commandments. They agree you should not kill or steal and you should honor your parents and worship God. They only have a problem with the Sabbath day. Jesus said keep all the commandments not just those you like.

 

[atpollard]

Galatians 5

13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[fn]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[fn] 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[fn] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Do you believe Paul also was inspired to write the word of God?
If YES, then why don't you believe him?
If NO, then we have no need to waste any more time (I believe the whole Bible is inspired).

 

[Acim]

No, if you say you love Jesus and want to follow Him, you should want to do want He says to do instead of looking for excuses why you do not have to do what He tells you to do. If the law says you should not kill other people, is there really any difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law? In fact the spirit of the law is even stricter because if you hate someone you have committed murder in your heart or in spirit. Jesus says to keep the law. Do you believe Him or make up excuses to not do it?

Jesus didn't make the Law. He helped interpret it for others, and was clearly about putting the Spirit before the Letter.

The Spirit of the Law is partially (to mostly) light hearted about the letter of the law. The difference between the two is as obvious as anything between material world and Spirit world. If the Spirit seems stricter, it would only seem that way if invested heavily in the material world. If you find this debatable, I'm up for that debate, but I see it getting into things that are more theological, than simply how one choose to interpret the letter of the Law.

How I would respond to your inquiry is example of theological difference. Him = Christ and Jesus is NOT the only Christ. I don't follow Jesus, I follow Christ.

 

[Deeje]

The point is that many churches teach that Jesus did away with the law. But Jesus himself said He did not come to destroy the law. So are Christians required to keep the law like Jesus said or not keep the law like the churches say? All these churches say they love Jesus and want to follow Hiim but then they do not waNT TO DO WHAT hE TELLS THEM TO DO.

The one thing most people do not consider is that Jesus was not a "Christian".....he was Jewish, sent to Jews to correct the Jewish nation and to lead them back to God as many prophets in the past had done. (Hebrews 1:1-2) Paul was one such person who accepted the correction and made himself a slave of his Messiah.

It was incumbent on Jews to keep the law and that is why Jesus did so, observing it perfectly in all respects as only a sinless man can.

When Jesus said he came, "not to destroy the law, but to filfill it", he was the reason that the sacrificial part of the law could cease. His sacrifice did away with the need for any other.
The Jewish mode of worship was a type and picture of the heavenly arrangement.....the temple, the priesthood and the formal worship were a shadow of the heavenly things and no longer needed to be a part of Christian worship. Jesus himself prescribed what was now necessary....

Matthew 22:34-40:
"After the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they came together in one group. 35 And one of them, versed in the Law, tested him by asking: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”

There are only two laws now for Christians....to 'love God with everything we have....and to love our neighbor as ourselves'. By keeping these two commandments, we also keep all the rest because love forms the basis for all of God's laws.

No one was obligated to keep the law except Israel, and if Jewish Christians wanted to keep Sabbath, they could, but it was no longer a requirement of the law for ALL of God's worshippers. Jewish law was not binding upon gentiles. This was demonstrated when the circumcision issue arose. Jewish Christians wanted to make it mandatory for gentiles to get circumcised. (Acts 15:1-11) Heated disputes were taking place, so the apostles got together with the older men and prayerfully sought the guidance of the holy spirit on the matter.....

Here is their unanimous decree...
Acts 15:28-29:
"28 For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you except these necessary things: 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper. Good health to you!"

These "necessary things" were all that the apostles deemed to be incumbent upon gentiles, and indeed all Christians. There is no Sabbath....and no circumcision,....no Jewish laws except those specific things that gentiles might bring with them from their old system of worship....sacrificing to idols, consumption of blood, and sexual immorality.

Christ was the end of the law because he came to fulfill it.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

This is still looking for excuses to say why Jesus did not mean what He said. He said "keep the commandments" and then listed several to show He was talking about the 10 commandmrnts, not just two. If your wife says if you love her, buy her flowers and you say you love her but look for reasons not to buy her flowers, then how much do you really love her? If Jesus says if you love Him keep the 10 commandments and you say you love Him but do not need to keep the commandments, then how much do you really love Him?

 

[metis]

There are 613 Commandments as found in Torah: http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

 

[atpollard]

This is still looking for excuses to say why Jesus did not mean what He said. He said "keep the commandments" and then listed several to show He was talking about the 10 commandmrnts, not just two. If your wife says if you love her, buy her flowers and you say you love her but look for reasons not to buy her flowers, then how much do you really love her? If Jesus says if you love Him keep the 10 commandments and you say you love Him but do not need to keep the commandments, then how much do you really love Him?

Matthew 22:40 On these two commands the whole Law hangs.

No excuse necessary. If you keep these two commands, then you keep the whole law and do not need to concern yourself with ceremonial details like what to eat or sabbaths ... because On these two commands the whole Law hangs.

So time for a quiz:

Q. What hangs on these two commands?
A. The whole Law.

Q. What about the Ten Commandments?
A. They are part of the whole Law.

Q. Does that mean that I can break the Law?
A. Not if you keep these two commandments, because the WHOLE LAW hangs on these two commandments.

How did you do on the quiz?
Did you get it yet?

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

That must include keeping the seventh day holy which very few people want to do. The whole law hangs on these two - that means you must keep the law.