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Congress Overides Obama's Veto Of The So Called 9/11 Bill

esmith

Veteran Member

jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
Congress overrides Obama's veto
Senate 91-1
House 348-77

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/senate-vote-override-president-obamas-veto-911-bill/story?id=42415601



Comments and opinion.
"Obama has expressed concerns the bill would not just potentially damage relations with Saudi Arabia, but leave government officials and U.S. citizens vulnerable to lawsuits from other nations."

This, right here...

It's a slippery slope and it's a mistake.

As someone who spent time living in Saudi Arabia, I'll vouch for the fact that there is probably not a more dedicated system for combating homeland terrorism than what the Saudis have. They're more cavalier than we are, sending in their special forces to straight up murder people who are even accused on forming cells within their homeland. They don't tolerate that **** at all. There was one week in particular where a couple of budding terror rings within Jeddah's boundaries were raided and everyone in the complex was killed. They later found direct ties to some of the larger organizations and that helped to justify the bloody response. They're kind of crazy sometimes, but the government itself recognizes the negative impact that homegrown terror has on the nation as a whole and on the greater body of Muslims in the world so they dedicate a lot of time and energy into dealing with it when and where they can. We need them, even if most of the American public doesn't recognize it.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
Pretty sure I agree with Obama on this one, and feel anyone sitting in chair of POTUS would hold to that position.

I don't see how the policy wouldn't be misused. The way the linked article in OP reads (and everyone I've seen like it) is: Individuals with connections to the Saudi government are alleged to have helped shape the plot to hijack airplanes and destroy key U.S. landmarks like the Twin Towers and the Pentagon.

Alleged is the key word. I mean during our elections we are constantly making allegations of 'individuals with connections to people in the government' who are up to bad stuff. And as we understand that, the cost is possible prosecution within the U.S. (but as we've learned, not so easy to send them to jail) and/or they lose the election. Now, imagine they win the election and another country wishes to exploit those connections for no other reason than it is now possible to sue people in foreign lands because of allegations of international wrong doing.

I don't see it as huge slippery slope, but do think it would be very (unbelievably incredibly) likely that this would come back to bite the world's military super power(s) in the butt.

At the same time, the case against the Saudis hasn't been brought, and so it'll be interesting to see how that plays out. As in who will be deciding that the Saudi government is in any way responsible for the allegations (connections to 9/11 hijackers, part of the plot) and in what way will they actually be held responsible? And how long can they drag out appeals? And during all that, how might that affect our relationship with them? Are they to be beholden to us for as long as that judgment favors us, or vice versa, if judgment goes against us, are we beholden to them for trying to make a connection of them with 9/11 hijackers, but let's say that fails (badly)?

And this is all with a semi-ally. So, what would stop any enemy of any country to bring allegations against another country? Like I'd think that the fact Israel is not signatory to NPT while widely being known to have nuclear arms would be ripe for some sort of allegations (with goal of either they now disclose or are made to go the route Iran recently had to). Sure, the U.S. and its allies likely have no reason to bring such a suit, but to think no country would given the fact that the U.S. brought suit against Saudi Arabia based on (mere) allegations, does mean that during such a trial stuff can, rather easily, get exposed.

I really do see the counter argument as based almost entirely on emotion and I find it impossible to not have compassion for that side. But at this cost, it is opening up a pandora's box.

There's part of me that does think this could (drastically) change the ways in which wars are waged, which might be a great thing. But I mostly think it'll be about being ultra secretive about connections (as it already is) and don't get caught (as it already is, but with less at stake from general public perspective). With 'mere' allegations in the loop, I don't see how it will bold well for anyone unless the legal process can be rigged.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Comments and opinion.
Is Congress going to give Iraqis the right to sue the USA government on behalf of damages done by US agents?
Will the USA government abide by decisions reached by Iraqi courts?
What about Iranians? What about Kurds, who were gassed by Saddam Hussein back when he was a puppet of the Bush administration? Can they sue the Bushes?

Tom
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
Suing a country because some of it citizens commit a crime sounds kind of stupid, it sounds like it opens up all kinds of possibilities for suing the USA because of actions of it citizens. I think Obama was right, I can't believe the Democratic senators abandoned him on this.
 

Kuzcotopia

If you can read this, you are as lucky as I am.
It's one of those bad ideas that an individual politician not responsible for global security almost have to vote for.

I really hope nothing much comes of it. . . or that it goes well dor those families, and our military experts are wrong about it's negative impact.

I guess we'll see.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It sounds like a very bizzare and badly thought out idea based on an extremely crude understanding of moral and legal responsibility.

the US would be effectively holding the Saudi people or government collectively responsible for 9/11 which is an insane and medieval practice at best. I'm think I'm with Obama on this one.
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
If Americans get to sue Saudi Arabia for the 9/11 attacks, do Canadians get to sue the United States for the Fenian Raids?
How about Japan (A-bomb) and Vietnam and Libya and Somalia and Afghanistan and Iraq!

These done officially by government not individuals.
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
I must say, it is really funny to see so many Americans actually having the gall to declare out loud and in public that the reason they don't like this law is because it will open up America to having to be accountable for all the terror they have brought on the world through their defense, security and intelligence forces. It is the same reason why they justify themselves not becoming a signatory of the ICC.

Now Americans not wanting to be held accountable for their crimes (or Americans not wanting their government to be held accountable for their governments crimes) would be nothing unusual if it wasn't for how quick they or their government is to bomb the hell out of supposed tyrants and dictators around world. And the excuse used for their governments terror attacks is often that these "evil men" are killing their own people. Now isn't it ironic that America should be so keen to bring justice against foreign leaders who kill their own people but is so reticent to bring justice to a foreign government who may have been involved in killing the American people?

The truth is that, internationally speaking, America is a criminal state and a bully. But I rest in the knowledge that no empire lasts forever.
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
While the other ones would have a better chance of success; this one probably would not succeed. Japan declared war on the U.S. with an unprovoked attack, after all.
USA bombed Japan after 3 months of WW2 declared end.

I do believe it's was not necessary to bomb two cities to show world that they invent the most demolition weapon.

Japan Seeks Peace

Months before the end of the war, Japan's leaders recognized that defeat was inevitable. In April 1945 a new government headed by Kantaro Suzuki took office with the mission of ending the war. When Germany capitulated in early May, the Japanese understood that the British and Americans would now direct the full fury of their awesome military power exclusively against them.




The atomic bomb was used at a time when Japan's navy was sunk, her air force virtually destroyed, her homeland surrounded, her supplies cut off, and our forces poised for the final stroke ... Our leaders seem not to have weighed the moral considerations involved. No sooner was the bomb ready than it was rushed to the front and dropped on two helpless cities ... The atomic bomb can fairly be said to have struck Christianity itself ... The churches of America must dissociate themselves and their faith from this inhuman and reckless act of the American Government.


I find this article full of historic events :
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n3p-4_weber.html
 

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
USA bombed Japan after 3 months of WW2 declared end.

No they didn't. You're confusing VE Day which stands for 'Victory in Europe Day' with the end of the war. That's the date on which what was left of the German government offered unconditional surrender to the Allied Forces. This only brought the conflict in the European theatre to an end. The war in Asia continued until VJ Day because the Japanese government refused to surrender until they had been A-bombed twice.


I do believe it's was not necessary to bomb two cities to show world that they invent the most demolition weapon.

The Japanese government refused to surrender after one of these god-awful things had already been dropped. What does that tell you about their resolve to fight to the death?
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
No they didn't. You're confusing VE Day which stands for 'Victory in Europe Day' with the end of the war. That's the date on which what was left of the German government offered unconditional surrender to the Allied Forces. This only brought the conflict in the European theatre to an end. The war in Asia continued until VJ Day because the Japanese government refused to surrender until they had been A-bombed twice.
No problem.
what's about quotes that I posted ?

I personally think was evil,and just reject peace messages from Japan,just to show up the world that they invent good weapon.
 

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
what's about quotes that I posted ?

I personally think was evil,and just reject peace messages from Japan,just to show up the world that they invent good weapon.

There probably was an element of that involved in the decision-making. I suspect the Japanese government weren't all united in their desire to surrender right away. I can only guess but I think they were hoping to surrender only after they had inflicted devastating casualties on any American invasion of the Japanese home islands so that they'd have a much stronger position to bargain their surrender from. And once the A-bomb was dropped I suspect the Japanese were hoping the Americans had only made the one. When it became apparent that they had made more...

I agree with the quotes you posted because there would have been widespread outrage about the affects of the A-bomb for decades afterwards (heck, there still is). I agree that the U.S. government didn't consider the full consequences; probably because they didn't use human test subjects.
 
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