Connecticut School Shooting

[Mr Spinkles]

You know what would REALLY deter a shooter? Grenades. They're easier to use and more reliable than firearms--just pull the pin and no gun-wielding maniac in his right mind will do you harm. Imagine how safe elementary schools would be if every child was issued a grenade for protection.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I know someone who bought some guns to protect himself and his wife. He got a concealed-carry license and did all the legally required training, plus additional classes and training. He has been shooting for fun every few weeks for many years now, he owns a few pistols and a shotgun. He's a very kind, responsible man and I fully trust that he knows how to use his guns.

Over the past several years he never had cause to use any of his guns for protection, however. Quite unexpectedly, his wife left him this year and sent his entire world spinning. He was a devoted husband and now he is beside himself and nearly out of his mind with grief and anger and hurt. Now that small arsenal is a source of constant uneasiness and worry for everyone who knows him and his wife, and we would all probably feel safer if it had never existed. It only takes one night, after a few too many beers ...

I feel the same way about sleeping pills in the medicine cabinet.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I feel the same way about sleeping pills in the medicine cabinet.

Gun, noose, sleeping pills ... one of these is not like the others.

 

[Reverend Rick]

... one of these is not like the others.

Like logic. DUI is a problem and kills far more people, but yet no one suggests banning cars or alcohol. Right now texting and driving is more dangerous than drinking and driving because at least the drunk is looking out the windshield. No one is suggesting banning cell phones.

Swimming pools kill children every year.......

One of these is exactly like the other.....

 

[Rakhel]

I know someone who bought some guns to protect himself and his wife. He got a concealed-carry license and did all the legally required training, plus additional classes and training. He has been shooting for fun every few weeks for many years now, he owns a few pistols and a shotgun. He's a very kind, responsible man and I fully trust that he knows how to use his guns.

Over the past several years he never had cause to use any of his guns for protection, however. Quite unexpectedly, his wife left him this year and sent his entire world spinning. He was a devoted husband and now he is beside himself and nearly out of his mind with grief and anger and hurt. Now that small arsenal is a source of constant uneasiness and worry for everyone who knows him and his wife, and we would all probably feel safer if it had never existed. It only takes one night, after a few too many beers ...

reminds me of Murtaugh from the Lethal Weapons movies.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Like logic. DUI is a problem and kills far more people, but yet no one suggests banning cars or alcohol.

Not only that, but there is no 'alcohol control'. Anyone can buy it. Anyone can carry it.

errr ... wait a minute ... I think I got that wrong ... :run:​

 

[Father Heathen]

I know someone who bought some guns to protect himself and his wife. He got a concealed-carry license and did all the legally required training, plus additional classes and training. He has been shooting for fun every few weeks for many years now, he owns a few pistols and a shotgun. He's a very kind, responsible man and I fully trust that he knows how to use his guns.

Over the past several years he never had cause to use any of his guns for protection, however. Quite unexpectedly, his wife left him this year and sent his entire world spinning. He was a devoted husband and now he is beside himself and nearly out of his mind with grief and anger and hurt. Now that small arsenal is a source of constant uneasiness and worry for everyone who knows him and his wife, and we would all probably feel safer if it had never existed. It only takes one night, after a few too many beers ...

Does the cutlery in the kitchen pose similar concerns?

 

[Father Heathen]

You know what would REALLY deter a shooter? Grenades. They're easier to use and more reliable than firearms--just pull the pin and no gun-wielding maniac in his right mind will do you harm. Imagine how safe elementary schools would be if every child was issued a grenade for protection.

Now who's making ridiculous comparisons?

 

[E. Nato Difficile]

Like logic. DUI is a problem and kills far more people, but yet no one suggests banning cars or alcohol.

And no one says the answer is to have more drunk drivers on the road.

The same can't be said for gun nut logic.

-Nato

 

[Revoltingest]

And no one says the answer is to have more drunk drivers on the road.
The same can't be said for gun nut logic.
-Nato

True. (Are you coming over to our side now?)
Gun nut logic is that concealed carriers can defend themselves & others, which enhances safety.
Drunk drivers serve no useful purpose, & pose nothing but danger.

 

[Revoltingest]

Now who's making ridiculous comparisons?

Ridiculous comparisons are necessary in order to defeat the notion of allowing properly trained school staff to be armed.
Since this is a reasonable suggestion, a straw man argument is necessary to discredit it.
(Of course, I know Mr Spinky was joshing us.)

 

[Father Heathen]

And no one says the answer is to have more drunk drivers on the road.

The same can't be said for gun nut logic.

-Nato

Likewise no one is saying to have more deranged murders out there, either. Let's be honest and cease with the straw man.

 

[E. Nato Difficile]

Likewise no one is saying to have more deranged murders out there, either. Let's be honest and cease with the straw man.

Not a straw man at all. One of the most commonly touted gun-rights screeds out there is a book called More Guns, Less Crime. Whether gun-rights folks are citing statistics from conservative think tanks, or concocting hypothetical situations where crazed gunmen are neutralized by quick-thinking gunmen, the basic assumption is that more guns are a good thing for society.

-Nato

 

[Revoltingest]

Not a straw man at all. One of the most commonly touted gun-rights screeds out there is a book called More Guns, Less Crime. Whether gun-rights folks are citing statistics from conservative think tanks, or concocting hypothetical situations where crazed gunmen are neutralized by quick-thinking gunmen, the basic assumption is that more guns are a good thing for society.

Actually, our basic assumption is that the right for law abiding citizens to own guns is a good thing.
So Father Heathen is right to call "straw man" when this assumption is altered to become something different & quite dangerous.

 

[dust1n]

Just under 100,000 public schools. Are we suppose to add maybe a 10,000 person increase to various police stations around the country? How many train gun professionals do we need per school? My graduating class was over 800 hundred people. You could walk onto the school from basically any direction undetected. Same for my middle school... except it had a fence. So what..., maybe half a million guns added to the education system. What a great way to sell guns!

 

[Kilgore Trout]

If the firearms are in the hands of trained individuals, then it's safer (IMO) to have them
around children, untrained/undertrained individuals, who cannot defend themselves.

It's safer to not have firearms around children period.

High concentrations of vulnerable people is a bad idea when evil doers know that they cannot be legally defended. We see this all too often, so a change is in order.

Like trying to put out a fire by throwing more wood on it.

 

[Rakhel]

Just under 100,000 public schools. Are we suppose to add maybe a 10,000 person increase to various police stations around the country? How many train gun professionals do we need per school? My graduating class was over 800 hundred people. You could walk onto the school from basically any direction undetected. Same for my middle school... except it had a fence. So what..., maybe half a million guns added to the education system. What a great way to sell guns!

Hey. It would decrease the unemployment rate.

 

[Revoltingest]

Like trying to put out a fire by throwing more wood on it.

By your analogy, sending armed cops would also be putting gasoline on the fire.
Perhaps it isn't so simple, eh?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

By your analogy, sending armed cops would also be putting gasoline on the fire.
Perhaps it isn't so simple, eh?

Things are as simple as people make them or don't make them. If you approach this as a statistical problem, taking into account the risk of accidental shooting with increased proximity to firearms, the psychological phenomenon that most people will not/cannot shoot another human being even in self defense, the absense of a realistic way to ensure that tens of thousands of teachers can be adequately trained to effectively use firearms, and that there is no way to reliably determine the future risk of such incidents, I'd say it's a fairly simple conclusion that the calculated risk of such a scheme far outweighs it's potential benefits.

 

[Revoltingest]

Things are as simple as people make them or don't make them. If you approach this as a statistical problem, taking into account the risk of accidental shooting with increased proximity to firearms, the psychological phenomenon that most people will not/cannot shoot another human being even in self defense, the absense of a realistic way to ensure that tens of thousands of teachers can be adequately trained to effectively use firearms, and that there is no way to reliably determine the future risk of such incidents, I'd say it's a fairly simple conclusion that the calculated risk of such a scheme far outweighs it's potential benefits.

The 2 underlined portions look contradictory.
But since guns are successfully used in self defense tens of thousands of times per year in the USA (far more than there are deaths
by guns), we can calculate that trained & armed school staff would be safer than enforcing total disarmament of the victims. There
is still the added advantage that perps intent on mass murder would be less likely to commit mayhem if they expected to be killed
before they got very far, ie, the deterrent effect. (There are no mass murders at gun shows.)