Conscious Universe

[Guitar's Cry]

That is one view but is that sun or its light conscious?

I say no, it's chemistry is not complex enough to become conscious

Agreed! And neither are my toenails. ;-)

 

[wellwisher]

As a Pagan, I have always known that Nature and of course the Universe as a whole, is alive, as are all of the parts of the whole individually alive in their own unique ways separate from the whole. Animated by Spirit if you want to call it that.

Now, where I waffle back and forth is whether I would consider the universe to be conscious though.

We are aware of and familiar with the Universe in much the same way that an organism in your gut microbiome is aware of your presence. Can that microbe be aware of your consciousness? Are you aware of the consciousness of the microbes in your gut Flora?

What do your traditions say? Is the Universe Conscious. Is it aware? Is this even considered?

If you look innovation; all the manmade things that have been added to the earth, these all initially involved unique consciousness of seeds ideas, of things, not originally part of the natural world.

The iPhone, for example did to grow on a tree or appear in a gold mine. It started in the matrix of a mind, were time and space are not limited to space-time; imagination. Each innovation became conscious, first, to the innovator and it then slowly appeared in physical reality; via a development phase, where mind and matter merge. This template is consistent to all innovation; consciousness comes before tangible reality in space-time.

With all innovation, not everyone is conscious of the innovation, until it finally becomes part of reality. However, lack of consensus consciousness at the ground floor, does not mean someone was not conscious of the process, leading to tangible things, so the collective consciousness of the doubters could see and understand. It starts in a different place, different from just space-time.

This observational reasoning may also be what is also behind our physical natural universe. Consciousness, that not everyone is aware of, saw the seeds of natural creation. Then it developed these seeds, until they appear in tangible reality, so everyone can see. Science comes in late; after the fact in space-time, because there is no good consensus theory for consciousness. Consciousness it is not tangible, but rather we know consciousness from its output affects, but not directly at the source; independent space and independent time. This place has many things in common with the quantum world.

For example, Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, which has been proven by experiments, allows us to know position and the momentum of particles like electrons in orbitals, but shows we cannot know both at the same time. If we know position, there will be uncertainty in momentum and vice versa. This is proof that space; position, and time; momentum, do not always have to act together, as implied by space-time. Consciousness appears to cut from this same wild card cloth as the quantum world.

In the imagination, where innovation first appears, what we can think is not limited to just space-time; nonfiction. We can also imagine fiction, which then can be made into a movie so it becomes sensory conscious to others. There is physics to this, but the current foundation premises of physics fall short. Once they catch up, it will be erase to understand, since reasoning is limited to your foundation premises, which now do not allow certain things.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

If you look innovation; all the manmade things that have been added to the earth, these all initially involved unique consciousness of seeds ideas, of things, not originally part of the natural world.

The iPhone, for example did to grow on a tree or appear in a gold mine. It started in the matrix of a mind, were time and space are not limited to space-time; imagination. Each innovation became conscious, first, to the innovator and it then slowly appeared in physical reality; via a development phase, where mind and matter merge. This template is consistent to all innovation; consciousness comes before tangible reality in space-time.

I like your thinking on this, however (I cut your post off at this point for a reason), I have a different take from there being an external consciousness outside of living beings seeding us ideas.

In a sense, iPhones are a product of evolution. Biochemical interactions adapt to the other changes in the environment, and this has led to states where biochemical models produce plastics, alloys, and chemical energy sources in configurations that connect to other biochemical models for more efficient connections.

 

[Twilight Hue]

We are a product of reactive matter.

Everything is reactive to stimuli, so consciousness is just cumulative triggered reactions that are integrated through a system of amazing communication through lesser organisms acting as a greater organism.

 

[Aupmanyav]

But I see no reason not to keep asking questions.

Agree, but we need to wait till new data is available. Jumping to conclusions is not correct.

So something non-conscious caused the effect of consciousness. How does that work? And in that non-conscious as the universe as such is something conscious? How does that work?
I am not going to debate you here, but to me, it doesn't make sense. But I accept that it does to you.

That is quite simple. It started with waves/atoms of Hydrogen and see where is it now!

"In physics, a subatomic particle is a particle smaller than an atom. According to the Standard Model of particle physics, a subatomic particle can be either a composite particle, which is composed of other particles (for example, a proton, neutron, or meson), or an elementary particle, which is not composed of other particles (for example, an electron, photon, or muon)."

Subatomic particle - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Quintessence]

Now, an awareness, a sensation, a knowing these are certainly better terms in discussing universe/consciousness. But I tried to use language the majority would be familiar with at least in an interfaith context.

edited: I think I originally misinterpreted your meaning @Quintessence .

Nah, you're fine. Language is a funny thing. It is going to miss the mark in capturing lived experience in some way, particularly cross-culturally.

The way I've experienced use of the term "consciousness," I'm not convinced it's a word I want to reclaim to apply to ... well, anything, actually (including humans), with the exception of referencing asleep/awake states in applicable biological organisms that have such cycles. Too much of the rest of how it is discussed in mundane culture gets tied up in the great-chain-of-being myth and anthropocentrism, which I am very strongly not keen on.

 

[vulcanlogician]

 

[Yerda]

As a Pagan, I have always known that Nature and of course the Universe as a whole, is alive, as are all of the parts of the whole individually alive in their own unique ways separate from the whole. Animated by Spirit if you want to call it that.

Now, where I waffle back and forth is whether I would consider the universe to be conscious though.

We are aware of and familiar with the Universe in much the same way that an organism in your gut microbiome is aware of your presence. Can that microbe be aware of your consciousness? Are you aware of the consciousness of the microbes in your gut Flora?

What do your traditions say? Is the Universe Conscious. Is it aware? Is this even considered?

I've been reading this: Panentheistic Cosmopsychism: Swami Vivekananda’s Sāṃkhya-Vedāntic Solution to the Hard Problem of Consciousness

If I had to pick a tradition that I'm closest to fitting into it would be boring old scientific materialism where this kind of stuff is just not on. Luckily I'm a curious chap and wacky ideas make me happy.