Consciousness in Cavemen? A Debate.

[mickiel]

yes, they are obviously conscious, and one would hope the government is working on this, maybe in Area 11 ........ i think thats the correct Area, maybe its Area 13, i cant remember, any who. they must have been placed there by the devil, since their trying to turn the faithful away from god. i used to be alter boy for cheesus crisp (not really). damn squigglies, why must you forsake me!?!?!:sad4:

-_-

Atheist and Agnostic sarcasm, the eight wonder of the debate world. Very humorus though, very funny.

If I can go back to language as a transfer of knowledge. The Knowledge and Language of primordal man must have been null and virtually void. Because they didnot transfer it for centurys. Language allows a transfer of an enormous scope, primordal man showed no innovation whatsoever in this expected transfer from a " Conscious people." Consciousness demands a transfer of knowledge, when no knowledge is transfered, no consciousness is present. When little knowledge is transfered, then we have animalistic levels of existence in the humans being considered.

Peace.

 

[JMorris]

Atheist and Agnostic sarcasm, the eight wonder of the debate world. Very humorus though, very funny.

If I can go back to language as a transfer of knowledge. The Knowledge and Language of primordal man must have been null and virtually void. Because they didnot transfer it for centurys. Language allows a transfer of an enormous scope, primordal man showed no innovation whatsoever in this expected transfer from a " Conscious people." Consciousness demands a transfer of knowledge, when no knowledge is transfered, no consciousness is present. When little knowledge is transfered, then we have animalistic levels of existence in the humans being considered.

Peace.

you discount my faith in eye squigglies? what about my personal experiences with them? i have a personal relationship with my eye squigglies, and you would too if you'd only look hard enough.

 

[mickiel]

you discount my faith in eye squigglies? what about my personal experiences with them? i have a personal relationship with my eye squigglies, and you would too if you'd only look hard enough.

I'll take a look.

Peace.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Omg if it's on the Internet it must be true

Now you know some one pulled that knowledge from their mind. That trumps the internet and the bible...so it must be true...

 

[Dirty Penguin]

it would be impossible for mickiel's argument to be presented in an intelligent, researched, factual manner. regardless of who presented it, as the very basis for his argument is not factual.

so would you rather discuss how the little squiggly's that are constantly in the corner of your eye are trying to control your mind? which is, of course, another proof of god.

And I want to go into that....

 

[ericoh2]

Mickiel,

What do you think the cavemen thought about this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_c6HsiixFS8

 

[rojse]

science is made up, or havent you been paying attention?

I have been paying attention. Just not to what Mickiel is saying.

 

[rojse]

Mickiel,

What do you think the cavemen thought about this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_c6HsiixFS8

Nothing. They sat inside caves and hit themselves on their head with clubs.

 

[mickiel]

Atheist and Agnostic sarcasm, the eight wonder of the debate world. Very humorus though, very funny.

If I can go back to language as a transfer of knowledge. The Knowledge and Language of primordal man must have been null and virtually void. Because they didnot transfer it for centurys. Language allows a transfer of an enormous scope, primordal man showed no innovation whatsoever in this expected transfer from a " Conscious people." Consciousness demands a transfer of knowledge, when no knowledge is transfered, no consciousness is present. When little knowledge is transfered, then we have animalistic levels of existence in the humans being considered.

Peace.

In language we have Calls, Modifiers and Commands. I maintain that in primordal man it was only postural or visual signals such as threat postures being used. Let me tell you why, because if I had no consciousness, thats exactly how I would communicate. They had no auditory signals. You live through the first Glaciation period, then the second, the third then the fourth, and still develop no language, thats proof right there they had no consciousness.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

 

[Mr Cheese]

I'd like to discuss pies

Pies I believe are satanic

How many pies can you find in the bible?

Can anyone cite a reference to pies?

Did Mohammed PBUH eat pies?
Did Jesus?

I am betting Lillith baked pies...

:help: pies

 

[Mr Cheese]

In language we have Calls, Modifiers and Commands. I maintain that in primordal man it was only postural or visual signals such as threat postures being used. Let me tell you why, because if I had no consciousness, thats exactly how I would communicate. They had no auditory signals. You live through the first Glaciation period, then the second, the third then the fourth, and still develop no language, thats proof right there they had no consciousness.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

you do know....

that just making thiungs up as you go along, does not make a debate....

I think Rojse is very smart..his point about cavemen hitting each other is great

the sad thing that is actually abundantly clear though, is I think you aren't fooling
you actually think the things you are posting are intelligent and rational

 

[Dirty Penguin]

you do know....

that just making thiungs up as you go along, does not make a debate....

you actually think the things you are posting are intelligent and rational

YES....

And I want to go into that....!

 

[Dirty Penguin]

In language we have Calls, Modifiers and Commands. I maintain that in primordal man it was only postural or visual signals such as threat postures being used. Let me tell you why, because if I had no consciousness, thats exactly how I would communicate. They had no auditory signals. You live through the first Glaciation period, then the second, the third then the fourth, and still develop no language, thats proof right there they had no consciousness.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

Prove it....Well, at least show some evidence that the way they communicated was not effective. Backup your assertion...

Do you think plants are conscious? Just looking at a plant you would think it neither can talk nor be able to communicate at all and over the millions upon millions of years plants have been on the planet they seemed to have never evolved a way to communicate yet studies are showing that plants can and do communicate (Plants Communicate to Warn Against Danger | LiveScience).

Your presumption, lacking any data to back it up, is that Neanderthals were not conscious because they lacked the ability to verbally communicate with each other....YET...they survived for thousands of years making weaponry, clothing, and burying their dead. If I make a spear and show my son how to make a spear and he, in turn, shows his son how to make one etc. etc. denotes consciousness. If they simply lived on instinct alone they wouldn't have been able to even make the spear. Crafting such an effective device for survival means they possessed some form of higher learning. It wasn't like they had children and the children were born with knowledge of making spears. So in reality the foundation of your argument fails.

Your problem is you fail to look outside your limited thinking capabilities to get an understanding of the natural world. I think you actually enjoy being ignorant.

An I want to go into that......

 

[Breathe]

In language we have Calls, Modifiers and Commands. I maintain that in primordal man it was only postural or visual signals such as threat postures being used. Let me tell you why, because if I had no consciousness, thats exactly how I would communicate. They had no auditory signals. You live through the first Glaciation period, then the second, the third then the fourth, and still develop no language, thats proof right there they had no consciousness.

And I want to go into that.

This has already been explained. Several times.
The support for Neanderthals being able to communicate is overwhelming.

They had the hyoid bone, which is used in assisting speech (tongue and larynx, blah blah blah), and they had the same middle and outer ear development as us, meaning they would have been able to differentiate between different sounds.

Hyoid bone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thus, our analysis shows that the skeletal anatomy of the outer and middle ear in the SH hominids is compatible with a human-like sound power transmission pattern, clearly different from chimpanzees in the critical region of ≈4 kHz. Because the SH hominids are not on the direct evolutionary line that gave rise to our own species, but form part of the Neandertal evolutionary lineage (19–21), it is conceivable that this condition was already present in the last common ancestor of modern humans and Neandertals. Analysis of Neandertal mtDNA suggests that this last common ancestor probably lived at least 500 thousand years ago (40–42), and it has been argued to be represented among the 800,000-year-old fossils from the TD6 level at the site of Gran Dolina (Sierra de Atapuerca, Spain) attributed to the species Homo antecessor (43, 44).

Auditory capacities in Middle Pleistocene humans from the Sierra de Atapuerca in Spain

The canals of Neanderthals and an early “modern” Homo sapiens (Skhul 5), as well as of African and European middle Pleistocene Homo (Kabwe and Swanscombe), fall within the range of extant Homo and are significantly larger than those of Pan troglodytes. These anatomical findings suggest that the vocal capabilities of Neanderthals were the same as those of humans today.

The hypoglossal canal and the origin of human vocal behavior

Short of us resurrecting the Neanderthal, what more do you want?

 

[mickiel]

This has already been explained. Several times.
The support for Neanderthals being able to communicate is overwhelming.

They had the hyoid bone, which is used in assisting speech (tongue and larynx, blah blah blah), and they had the same middle and outer ear development as us, meaning they would have been able to differentiate between different sounds.


They had all that, yet still had no consciousness. Without consciousness, you cannot have language. They had all those things you mentioned, but yet didnot have language. Why, because they had no consciousness. Consciousness is God given, it cannot evolve, we cannot take it from anywhere, it cannot be created by humans or animals, it didnot come from Algae.

Peace.

 

[Mr Cheese]

This has already been explained. Several times.
The support for Neanderthals being able to communicate is overwhelming.

They had the hyoid bone, which is used in assisting speech (tongue and larynx, blah blah blah), and they had the same middle and outer ear development as us, meaning they would have been able to differentiate between different sounds.


They had all that, yet still had no consciousness. Without consciousness, you cannot have language. They had all those things you mentioned, but yet didnot have language. Why, because they had no consciousness. Consciousness is God given, it cannot evolve, we cannot take it from anywhere, it cannot be created by humans or animals, it didnot come from Algae.

Peace.

Mickiel is correct
because he thinks so

Keep up Odion....

how can you question Mickiel
when all the correct answers lie in his mind through pre-supposition?

there is no leeway, no other opinion

Only Mickiel's mind and vies are correct

either face that, or get out

 

[Cobblestones]

They had the hyoid bone, which is used in assisting speech (tongue and larynx, blah blah blah), and they had the same middle and outer ear development as us, meaning they would have been able to differentiate between different sounds.

They had all that, yet still had no consciousness.

Apparently like some people on this forum.

 

[mickiel]

Mickiel is correct
because he thinks so

Keep up Odion....

how can you question Mickiel
when all the correct answers lie in his mind through pre-supposition?

there is no leeway, no other opinion

Only Mickiel's mind and vies are correct

either face that, or get out

Well I certainly disagree with this. Through this debate, I learned that I was wrong about the time line of Adams creation, I thought it was 3,000 years ago, but learned it was more likely 6,000- 12,000 years ago, so I have ajusted my mind accordingly.

I can learn, but two things must first be in place before I learn. The Truth, and a path to it that I can comprehend.

Peace.

 

[Breathe]

They had all that, yet still had no consciousness.

How do you know? Have you been back in time and met them? Have you studied anthropology, palaeontology, biology?
We share a common ancestor with Neanderthals, and all of the possibility is there.

They had all those things you mentioned, but yet didnot have language.

I doubt that. Your view is the minority here, and is wholly unsupported by scientific data. Evidence points to the contrary.

Why, because they had no consciousness.

Prove it. I'm still waiting to see a decent explanation on what you think consciousness is.

EVERYTHING points to them being conscious. Language, ceremonial burying and rituals (probably including a type of religion, most likely animism or hard polytheism), building items, clothing, and that they had to co-operate.

And what would happen if humans managed to resurrect Neanderthals via cloning their DNA and suchlike, and it showed they were as intelligent as humans? Would you change your theory, or would deny their intelligence, or would you deny them consciousness and personhood still because they did not share being the exact species as us?

 

[mickiel]

EVERYTHING points to them being conscious. Language, ceremonial burying and rituals (probably including a type of religion, most likely animism or hard polytheism), building items, clothing, and that they had to co-operate.
?

They didnot have language, you assert that, but there is absolutely no evidence for language, simply produce it. The lack of it is the proof I needed to know they had no consciousness. You are speculating, they had no religion, and there is no proof of religion, yet another proof of no consciousness. They had no agriculture, yet more proof of no consciousness.

They had no schools, no educational system.

They had no modes of transportation.

They had no science.

They had no Maps, or anyother signs of advanced writting.

They had no buildings, nor anyother signs of construction.

They had no Medicines.

They had no signs of trade.

They had no civilization.

They had no sports.

They had no pets.

They had no signs whatsoever of any kind of monetary system.


They stayed in this mode, with no change, for over 200,000 years.

Quess why? They had no Consciousness.

Peace.