Consciousness

[Dan From Smithville]

You can't have a "science of consciousness" without a definition for "consciousness". "Neuroscience" studies nerves, not consciousness. AQnatomy is not consciousness. I think therefore I am is not consciousness. Nothing science does is the studfy of consciousness until such time as there ois a definition for "consciousness"

In the meantime all we can say is some of what science is studying probably relates directly to consciousness.

You really must love internal contradictions. You can't study something until you already know what it is. Knowing, then no study would be required.

Not knowing, scientific methods are applied to learn. Having the subject of those studies fully defined is not a requirement. Frankly, that doesn't even make sense.

 

[shunyadragon]

You can't have a "science of consciousness" without a definition for "consciousness". "Neuroscience" studies nerves, not consciousness. AQnatomy is not consciousness. I think therefore I am is not consciousness. Nothing science does is the studfy of consciousness until such time as there ois a definition for "consciousness"

In the meantime all we can say is some of what science is studying probably relates directly to consciousness.

Again the definition of consciousness is clear and specific and adequate for science. Your obvious slippery ancient religious agenda creats a high fog index. Also see post #41. Definition limitations do not preclude scientific research

What is specifically wrong with the current definitions of consciousness?

Arguing from ignorance cannot justify your slippery religious agenda against science and evolution.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

The long history of your 'circular irrational' Nihilist argument against the objective. has no possible constructive response.

I feel pretty confident that the proponents of the philosophical side of these topics are as interested in learning about it as I am. At least most appear to. To be sure, there are some that I have no idea what they are on about. But it does often seem like the message is we can't know from the evidence, so what is the point of asking. Or any conclusion is subjective, therefore meaningless.

If we can observe something, we can study it. Whether that will lead us somewhere or just open up more questions, we have learned something. That will go a long way to increasing understanding, defining the phenomenon and devising plans to further study it. We can still argue and discuss the philosophical ramifications surrounding the phenomenon.

 

[shunyadragon]

I feel pretty confident that the proponents of the philosophical side of these topics are as interested in learning about it as I am. At least most appear to. To be sure, there are some that I have no idea what they are on about. But it does often seem like the message is we can't know from the evidence, so what is the point of asking. Or any conclusion is subjective, therefore meaningless.

If we can observe something, we can study it. Whether that will lead us somewhere or just open up more questions, we have learned something. That will go a long way to increasing understanding, defining the phenomenon and devising plans to further study it. We can still argue and discuss the philosophical ramifications surrounding the phenomenon.

I extensively study philosophy over the years and have concluded little can be achieved concerning th eproblem of consciousness from the philosophical perspective.

You cannot just 'think about consciousness' to lead to a better understanding of consciousness. I consider consciousness and intelligence a fundamentally evolved physical process. The most compelling evidence is that octopuses evolved independently a very advanced consciousness and intelligence independent of human evolution.

 

[cladking]

You really must love internal contradictions. You can't study something until you already know what it is.

That isn't what I said but there is some truth to it.

"Paradigms" are simply a system of definitions and axioms used to interpret experiment. So every experiment has its own system of definitions with the first experiment founded on "I think therefore I am".

Herein lies the reason science must be tweaked. That statement is false on almost every level.

 

[shunyadragon]

That isn't what I said but there is some truth to it.

"Paradigms" are simply a system of definitions and axioms used to interpret experiment. So every experiment has its own system of definitions with the first experiment founded on "I think therefore I am".

Herein lies the reason science must be tweaked. That statement is false on almost every level.

You not only tweak science you flat out reject it based on an ancient religious agenda.

You have no shown any knowledge of science nor references concerning science to defend you agenda(?).

 

[cladking]

What is specifically wrong with the current definitions of consciousness?

Everything known about consciousness studies its effects in the brain. It's like trying to understand the hydraulic cycle by recording rainfall and the types of clouds from which it falls.

 

[cladking]

I feel pretty confident that the proponents of the philosophical side of these topics are as interested in learning about it as I am. At least most appear to. To be sure, there are some that I have no idea what they are on about. But it does often seem like the message is we can't know from the evidence, so what is the point of asking. Or any conclusion is subjective, therefore meaningless.

Speaking only for myself, consciousness and understanding it have dominated my life since I was tiny. I've watch for every new advance.

 

[shunyadragon]

Everything known about consciousness studies its effects in the brain. It's like trying to understand the hydraulic cycle by recording rainfall and the types of clouds from which it falls.

Nothing of substance here as usual.

What is specifically wrong with the current definitions of consciousness?

 

[shunyadragon]

Speaking only for myself, consciousness and understanding it have dominated my life since I was tiny. I've watch for every new advance.

. . . but nothing cited to support your argument, just blue smoke and mirrors blended with noisy static. Nothing of substance that documents your assertions,

 

[cladking]

You cannot just 'think about consciousness' to lead to a better understanding of consciousness. I consider consciousness and intelligence a fundamentally evolved physical process. The most compelling evidence is that octopuses evolved independently a very advanced consciousness and intelligence independent of human evolution.

All new ideas come from individual thought.

Every single one.

 

[cladking]

What is specifically wrong with the current definitions of consciousness?

Read post #47 again. THAT is what is wrong with the definition.

With the current definition an animal which is comatose or in a deep sleep isn't even conscious. It's not really different than a stone. An oak tree isn't conscious even in mid summer when it has plenty of water, nutrients, and sunlight. Many crystals grow much faster than an oak.

Your definitions are based on effects and have no characteristics of causes.

 

[shunyadragon]

Read post #47 again. THAT is what is wrong with the definition.

That says nothing, but a meaningless word salad with an analogy.

With the current definition an animal which is comatose or in a deep sleep isn't even conscious. It's not really different than a stone. An oak tree isn't conscious even in mid summer when it has plenty of water, nutrients, and sunlight. Many crystals grow much faster than an oak.

Please cite a scientific reference that supports your assertion.

Deep Sleep and REM are observed and measured states of consciousness.

REM vs Deep: The Most Important Type of Sleep

Are you getting both REM and deep sleep? Both are key for our health.

www.psychologytoday.com

REM vs Deep: The Most Important Type of Sleep​

REM and deep sleep are commonly confused. Is one better than the other?​

Posted June 4, 2022 | Reviewed by Vanessa Lancaster

THE BASICS

• Why Is Sleep Important?
• Find a sleep therapist near me

KEY POINTS​

• While all types of sleep appear to be essential, deep wave sleep could be considered the most essential.
• If your sleep is restless and non-restorative, you may lack sufficient deep sleep.
• REM sleep assists memory differently than deep sleep, focusing on social-emotional memories and even salvaging forgotten memories.

"I have to get my deep REM sleep," expresses a common confusion about two very different types of sleep. Deep sleep and rapid eye movement (REM) sleep are not the same; they do not even overlap. They each have different brain wave patterns and physiological characteristics, occur at different times of our sleep cycle, and play different roles in our wellbeing. Which is most important?

While all types of sleep appear to be essential, deep wave sleep could be considered the most essential. It does many things for us, supporting our entire central nervous system. Its signature move makes us feel restored when we get it and unrefreshed when we don’t. If your sleep is restless and non-restorative, you may lack sufficient deep sleep. If you have trouble retaining new information, you may be lacking REM and/or deep sleep.

Deep sleep is restorative.

Source: bruniewska/Shutterstock
Both types of sleep occur several times throughout the night. (Reading about the stages of sleep can be confusing because the 4th type listed is often REM, but Stage 4 sleep is deep. Stages 3 and 4 are often lumped together as deep sleep, thus much confusion).
One sleep cycle is about 90 minutes, so we typically sleep for four to six cycles per night. Some cycles have more deep delta sleep, some more REM. Some have both. No cycle is exactly like another because that is just how intricate and specialized our whole system is.

REM and deep have important differences. Let's start with deep wave sleep. It goes by many names, including delta wave sleep (its predominant brain wave), Stage 3-4, Stage 3 or Stage 4 Sleep.

Deep Wave Sleep​

• Deep sleep is one type, the deepest type of non-REM sleep. I like to think of it as when our sleep sleeps.
• Slow delta brain waves oscillate at about two to four waves per second and make up less than 25 percent of our nightly slumber.
• Deep sleep occurs after shallow sleep (Stages 1 and 2) within a 90-minute sleep cycle.
• Deep sleep is generated from the frontal lobe and displays the brain at its most coordinated. It is synchronized with other brain waves, unlike the disharmony of wave patterns during REM sleep.
• This “neural resonance” may help the lymphatic system cleanse our brains by flushing them of beta-amyloid plaques and misshapen proteins associated with Alzheimer’s disease.
• Deep sleep is more prevalent in the first half of the night. The brain seems to prioritize it, dipping down into deep sleep about an hour after you nod off and then a few more times throughout the night.
• Deep sleep tends to disappear in the last cycles of the night when REM increases. (Thank goodness because it is difficult to wake from deep sleep, and if someone or something dares do this, you may feel disoriented and irritable).
• Growth hormone production occurs in deep sleep and both decrease with age.
• When we lack deep wave sleep, our risk for almost every disease goes up. The research is clear: we need deep wave sleep to be well.
• Things that zap deep sleep include alcohol, benzodiazepines, opioid medications, lack of activity, and oversleeping (sleeping past your regular wake-up time).

Your definitions are based on effects and have no characteristics of causes.

The observed causes are measured and observed neurological activity of the nervous system as in Deep Sleep versus REM sleep.

There is also the problem of the fact of the lack alternate hypothesis that has any explanatory power based on the existing evidence..

 

[cladking]

That says nothing, but a meaningless word salad with an analogy.

Please ask this response in a way to indicate you understood any of the previous answers.

Please restate the the response in any way.

 

[cladking]

REM vs Deep: The Most Important Type of Sleep​

REM and deep sleep are commonly confused. Is one better than the other?​

Posted June 4, 2022 | Reviewed by Vanessa Lancaster

THE BASICS

• Why Is Sleep Important?
• Find a sleep therapist near me

KEY POINTS​

• While all types of sleep appear to be essential, deep wave sleep could be considered the most essential.
• If your sleep is restless and non-restorative, you may lack sufficient deep sleep.
• REM sleep assists memory differently than deep sleep, focusing on social-emotional memories and even salvaging forgotten memories.

"I have to get my deep REM sleep," expresses a common confusion about two very different types of sleep. Deep sleep and rapid eye movement (REM) sleep are not the same; they do not even overlap. They each have different brain wave patterns and physiological characteristics, occur at different times of our sleep cycle, and play different roles in our wellbeing. Which is most important?

While all types of sleep appear to be essential, deep wave sleep could be considered the most essential. It does many things for us, supporting our entire central nervous system. Its signature move makes us feel restored when we get it and unrefreshed when we don’t. If your sleep is restless and non-restorative, you may lack sufficient deep sleep. If you have trouble retaining new information, you may be lacking REM and/or deep sleep.

Deep sleep is restorative.

Source: bruniewska/Shutterstock
Both types of sleep occur several times throughout the night. (Reading about the stages of sleep can be confusing because the 4th type listed is often REM, but Stage 4 sleep is deep. Stages 3 and 4 are often lumped together as deep sleep, thus much confusion).
One sleep cycle is about 90 minutes, so we typically sleep for four to six cycles per night. Some cycles have more deep delta sleep, some more REM. Some have both. No cycle is exactly like another because that is just how intricate and specialized our whole system is.

REM and deep have important differences. Let's start with deep wave sleep. It goes by many names, including delta wave sleep (its predominant brain wave), Stage 3-4, Stage 3 or Stage 4 Sleep.

Deep Wave Sleep​

• Deep sleep is one type, the deepest type of non-REM sleep. I like to think of it as when our sleep sleeps.
• Slow delta brain waves oscillate at about two to four waves per second and make up less than 25 percent of our nightly slumber.
• Deep sleep occurs after shallow sleep (Stages 1 and 2) within a 90-minute sleep cycle.
• Deep sleep is generated from the frontal lobe and displays the brain at its most coordinated. It is synchronized with other brain waves, unlike the disharmony of wave patterns during REM sleep.
• This “neural resonance” may help the lymphatic system cleanse our brains by flushing them of beta-amyloid plaques and misshapen proteins associated with Alzheimer’s disease.
• Deep sleep is more prevalent in the first half of the night. The brain seems to prioritize it, dipping down into deep sleep about an hour after you nod off and then a few more times throughout the night.
• Deep sleep tends to disappear in the last cycles of the night when REM increases. (Thank goodness because it is difficult to wake from deep sleep, and if someone or something dares do this, you may feel disoriented and irritable).
• Growth hormone production occurs in deep sleep and both decrease with age.
• When we lack deep wave sleep, our risk for almost every disease goes up. The research is clear: we need deep wave sleep to be well.
• Things that zap deep sleep include alcohol, benzodiazepines, opioid medications, lack of activity, and oversleeping (sleeping past your regular wake-up time).

So you're doubling down on your contention you can understand consciousness by attaching electrodes.

Why do you believe you can understand consciousness as a black box problem? Show me the experiment that proves you can understand consciousness as such or without even a proper definition for the term.

You are just telling us what is already known but what isn't known is what consciousness is, how it arises, and whether or not other life forms have it. They've been attaching electrodes since about WW II but all it does it map the brain and not shine any light of any sort on the nature of consciousness which is why we lack a proper definition.

 

[cladking]

There is also the problem of the fact of the lack alternate hypothesis that has any explanatory power based on the existing evidence..

Consciousness is life.

 

[shunyadragon]

Consciousness is life.

Not a hypothesis for the origin or nature of consciousness
By the objective evidence consciousness and Intelligence are natural products of the neurological activity of the physical brain and naturally evolved. An important example for comparison is the directly observed consciousness and intelligence of the octopus.

So you're doubling down on your contention you can understand consciousness by attaching electrodes.

Why do you believe you can understand consciousness as a black box problem? Show me the experiment that proves you can understand consciousness as such or without even a proper definition for the term.

You are just telling us what is already known but what isn't known is what consciousness is, how it arises, and whether or not other life forms have it. They've been attaching electrodes since about WW II but all it does it map the brain and not shine any light of any sort on the nature of consciousness which is why we lack a proper definition.

It is a hypothesis that has been falsified repeated by direct observations in humans and other animals like the octopus. Direct observations of neurological activity are objective verifiable evidence of the hypothesis. There is no black box problem, nor any sort of Black Box.

Yes dobbling down and you have failed to respond.

This is a failure to respond to the facts that Deep Sleep and REM sleep are objectively measured and quantified product of the neurological activity of the brain.

Still waiting for you to cite something of substance instead of meaningless assumptions based on your personal opinion.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Consciousness is life.

I know of at least one philosopher, and one neurologist*, who consider that consciousness may be a fundamental phenomenon. That’s an interesting idea, which I find intuitively persuasive. Consciousness is everything to us, without it we have no knowledge, no experience, in fact we have nothing.

*David Chalmers and Guilio Tononi respectively.

 

[shunyadragon]

Everything known about consciousness studies its effects in the brain.

I missed this. This is a theological assumption without any basis in evidence. If you disagree, please provide a reference with the evidence.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Not a hypothesis for the origin or nature of consciousness
By the objective evidence consciousness and Intelligence are natural products of the neurological activity of the physical brain and naturally evolved. An important example for comparison is the directly observed consciousness and intelligence of the octopus.

It is a hypothesis that has been falsified repeated by direct observations in humans and other animals like the octopus. Direct observations of neurological activity are objective verifiable evidence of the hypothesis. There is no black box problem, nor any sort of Black Box.

Yes dobbling down and you have failed to respond.

This is a failure to respond to the facts that Deep Sleep and REM sleep are objectively measured and quantified product of the neurological activity of the brain.

Still waiting for you to cite something of substance instead of meaningless assumptions based on your personal opinion.

You are mistaking correlation for causation, as reductionists and naive materialists so often do. No one is denying that mental states are associated with electric and chemical activity in the brain; this correlation does not prove that qualitative experience originates there, and it most certainly does not suggest that the one can be reduced to the other.