conservative party accused of 'fundamental' failure" over islamaphobia

[Notanumber]

My comment also applies to other religions. Christianity for example.

The thread is about Islamophobia.

 

[icehorse]

So, what don't you like about Islam?

First off, I do Muslims the honor of taking them at their word. I have been told repeatedly that if Islam has any common, universal ideas, it (Islam), is based on these two things:

1 - The Quran is the perfect, timeless word of god.
2 - Muhammad's life is the perfect role model for Muslims.

That is the context from which I assess the ideas of Islam.

With that said, the Quran and Muhammad promote: misogyny, supremacism, theocracy, homophobia, and anti-semitism. I don't like that.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

None he less, the definition is specific and accurate

I disagree. It lumps together rational positions of dislike for Islam with reasons that are couched in xenophobia as well as ones where 'dislike of Islam' is dog-whistling for being ****ty to Muslims (and those perceived to be Muslims).

Are they not?, can you list one or two "rational" reasons for predudice against islam?

I can give you a number of reasons for disliking the religion, yes, since that was included in the definition:

1. Islam actively encourages intolerance of sexual minorities. As an example, in a poll carried out three years ago, 52% of British Muslims surveyed said they want homosexuality to be illegal in the UK - a significant departure from British non-Muslims. A more recent example is the protests at multiple schools in England organised and populated (mostly) by Muslims who object to their children being taught to be tolerant of LGBT people - and are hitting out with homophobic 'gay indoctrination' tropes. They say the lesson should be stopped because they are contrary to Islam;
2. It encourages intolerance towards ex-Muslims to the extent leaving Islam for another religion or for none is a criminal offence in many Muslim countries. In more than a few this is a capital crime, with the 'apostate' being given a number of days to recant & repent or face being executed murdered by the state for daring to dissent. A number of Islamic charities here in the UK have been discovered by the National Secular Society to be actively promoting the position death is the suitable punishment for leaving Islam;
3. Islam is intolerant of other belief systems and encourages such attitudes in its followers all too often. One example is Indonesian Muslims threatening to trash a Confucian temple's statue of the deified general Guan Yu unless it was covered up. Another example of religious intolerance is the fact that there aren't many Muslim-majority countries where polytheists can worship freely or safely - and no Islamic countries - where they can do so. Several months ago Malaysian Muslims broke into a Hindu temple and attacked worshippers with sticks and daggers. A short time before that Bangladeshi Muslims attacked Hindu homes & temples because someone posted a picture of Shiva over the Kaaba on social media;

Now concerning each of these:

1. Considering I have a number of friends who are LGBT, am I wrong to be concerned with the spreading influence of a religion that views them as sinful, unnatural etc? Am I wrong to dislike that religion?
2. Given the hard time ex-Muslims are given for daring to raise a voice against the intolerant aspects of Islam & the intolerant behaviour perpetrated at them by Muslims (who are often their friends & family), and given the horror stories we do hear on the rare occasions they do manage to make their voices heard, am I wrong to be concerned with the spreading influence of a religion that actively encourages the murder of any who dare to try and reject it? Am I wrong to dislike to dislike that religion?
3. Considering I have friends of various belief systems, and am a self-identified polytheist Pagan, is it wrong of me to be concerned with the spreading influence of a religion that 'others' non-Muslims in some of the worst ways, teaches that polytheism is a corruption of religion and actively seeks to suppress polytheist beliefs & practices wherever it finds them? If Scottish Pagans were to collectivise and fund the acquisition/construction of their own temples, I'm fairly certain (though I'm open to being wrong and assuming the worst) they'd find Muslims among opposition to their plans. Am I wrong to dislike a religion that poses a threat to my ability worship freely?

Hint, i can and have argued them with muslims, i have not gone around seething with hatred because of them

Same.

Why is it dishonest when it describes a situation that exists?

It in no way implies irrationality.

It's Islamophobia.

The addition of the suffix 'phobia' adds emotional weight to the term. We use 'homophobia' because arguments, prejudices & tropes against homosexuals are irrational. Arachnophobia is the irrational fear or dislike of spiders. Agoraphobia is the irrational fear or dislike of going outside. Of course the term 'Islamophobia' implies irrationality. After all, since when was a phobia rational?

The definition is dishonest because, as I've mentioned in a previous post, it groups rational concerns about Islam & Islamism (like the ones I've mentioned above) with irrational ones. That is the symptom of a very broad brush and ill-defined term.

 

[icehorse]

Why is it dishonest when it describes a situation that exists?

It in no way implies irrationality.

A phobia is an irrational fear.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

First off, I do Muslims the honor of taking them at their word. I have been told repeatedly that if Islam has any common, universal ideas, it (Islam), is based on these two things:

1 - The Quran is the perfect, timeless word of god.
2 - Muhammad's life is the perfect role model for Muslims.

That is the context from which I assess the ideas of Islam.

With that said, the Quran and Muhammad promote: misogyny, supremacism, theocracy, homophobia, and anti-semitism. I don't like that.

So you don't like religions that promote misogyny and homophobia?

 

[icehorse]

So you don't like religions that promote misogyny and homophobia?

Agreed, and I don't think Islam is unique in that regard.

 

[ChristineM]

The leader of the Muslim council considers what Boris Johnson (yes I know he's a dick) said that "Muslim women that wear the full headress look like letterboxes" as islamophobia,how exactly does that fit the bill,is it a phobia or descrimination?.

Arachnophobia is much clearer,extreme or irrational fear of spiders.

Johnson made the comment, knowing what i know if johnson it was most probably designed as a hurtfull insult. How others understood it is up to them

You mention an individual incident and act like it relates to all islam.
Islamophobia is so run of the mill it even has a wikipedia page
List of Islamophobic incidents - Wikipedia

 

[ChristineM]

phobia. an extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something.

You got it in one

 

[ChristineM]

Only that it's an irrational fear.

Sure its an irrational fear, so is fear of islam

 

[ChristineM]

I disagree. It lumps together rational positions of dislike for Islam with reasons that are couched in xenophobia as well as ones where 'dislike of Islam' is dog-whistling for being ****ty to Muslims (and those perceived to be Muslims).




I can give you a number of reasons for disliking the religion, yes, since that was included in the definition:

1. Islam actively encourages intolerance of sexual minorities. As an example, in a poll carried out three years ago, 52% of British Muslims surveyed said they want homosexuality to be illegal in the UK - a significant departure from British non-Muslims. A more recent example is the protests at multiple schools in England organised and populated (mostly) by Muslims who object to their children being taught to be tolerant of LGBT people - and are hitting out with homophobic 'gay indoctrination' tropes. They say the lesson should be stopped because they are contrary to Islam;
2. It encourages intolerance towards ex-Muslims to the extent leaving Islam for another religion or for none is a criminal offence in many Muslim countries. In more than a few this is a capital crime, with the 'apostate' being given a number of days to recant & repent or face being executed murdered by the state for daring to dissent. A number of Islamic charities here in the UK have been discovered by the National Secular Society to be actively promoting the position death is the suitable punishment for leaving Islam;
3. Islam is intolerant of other belief systems and encourages such attitudes in its followers all too often. One example is Indonesian Muslims threatening to trash a Confucian temple's statue of the deified general Guan Yu unless it was covered up. Another example of religious intolerance is the fact that there aren't many Muslim-majority countries where polytheists can worship freely or safely - and no Islamic countries - where they can do so. Several months ago Malaysian Muslims broke into a Hindu temple and attacked worshippers with sticks and daggers. A short time before that Bangladeshi Muslims attacked Hindu homes & temples because someone posted a picture of Shiva over the Kaaba on social media;

Now concerning each of these:

1. Considering I have a number of friends who are LGBT, am I wrong to be concerned with the spreading influence of a religion that views them as sinful, unnatural etc? Am I wrong to dislike that religion?
2. Given the hard time ex-Muslims are given for daring to raise a voice against the intolerant aspects of Islam & the intolerant behaviour perpetrated at them by Muslims (who are often their friends & family), and given the horror stories we do hear on the rare occasions they do manage to make their voices heard, am I wrong to be concerned with the spreading influence of a religion that actively encourages the murder of any who dare to try and reject it? Am I wrong to dislike to dislike that religion?
3. Considering I have friends of various belief systems, and am a self-identified polytheist Pagan, is it wrong of me to be concerned with the spreading influence of a religion that 'others' non-Muslims in some of the worst ways, teaches that polytheism is a corruption of religion and actively seeks to suppress polytheist beliefs & practices wherever it finds them? If Scottish Pagans were to collectivise and fund the acquisition/construction of their own temples, I'm fairly certain (though I'm open to being wrong and assuming the worst) they'd find Muslims among opposition to their plans. Am I wrong to dislike a religion that poses a threat to my ability worship freely?

Same.




It's Islamophobia.

The addition of the suffix 'phobia' adds emotional weight to the term. We use 'homophobia' because arguments, prejudices & tropes against homosexuals are irrational. Arachnophobia is the irrational fear or dislike of spiders. Agoraphobia is the irrational fear or dislike of going outside. Of course the term 'Islamophobia' implies irrationality. After all, since when was a phobia rational?

The definition is dishonest because, as I've mentioned in a previous post, it groups rational concerns about Islam & Islamism (like the ones I've mentioned above) with irrational ones. That is the symptom of a very broad brush and ill-defined term.

Phobia. Yes, the fear of islam. It is irrational but it exists and is common.

Sure the word is sometimes misused, as are many other words, that makes no difference to its validity

 

[England my lionheart]

Sure its an irrational fear, so is fear of islam

It's not prejudice then?.

 

[ChristineM]

A phobia is an irrational fear.

That was my bad. The fear of islam is irrational.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

Agreed, and I don't think Islam is unique in that regard.

Yeah, Islam sort of reminds of Buddhism in that regard.

 

[ChristineM]

It's not prejudice then?.

Can be, irrational prejudice

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Sure its an irrational fear, so is fear of islam

Not for LGBTs who face erasure and homophobic intolerance in England from Muslims who don't their kids to know LGBTs exist. Not for ex-Muslims who often face ostracism from their family & friends and the community they were raised in, sometimes even threats to their safety & even their life, for leaving Islam. Not for polytheists who realise Muslims will, in all likelihood, oppose any attempts they make to open places of worship for their own gods & religious communities. Not for LGBT Muslims who face years of being told their own religion views them as sinful, unnatural etc and the resulting poor mental health that will arise from this.

Their fears of Islam are not irrational in the slightest.

Phobia. Yes, the fear of islam. It is irrational

Except when it's not as I've provided you examples of.

but it exists and is common.

Sure the word is sometimes misused, as are many other words, that makes no difference to its validity

You're right. Its validity is 0 regardless because its definition is so generalised and vague.

 

[England my lionheart]

Can be, irrational prejudice

"Can be",islamophobia,dislike of or prejudice against Islam or Muslims, especially as a political force,there's no mention of irrationality there,really there should be because that's what phobia means.

 

[sun rise]

Uh, then it would be called "anti-Muslim" not "Islamophobia". It's the Koran and the hadiths people don't like -the religion itself.

We can just call it prejudice.

 

[ChristineM]

Not for LGBTs who face erasure and homophobic intolerance in England from Muslims who don't their kids to know LGBTs exist. Not for ex-Muslims who often face ostracism from their family & friends and the community they were raised in, sometimes even threats to their safety & even their life, for leaving Islam. Not for polytheists who realise Muslims will, in all likelihood, oppose any attempts they make to open places of worship for their own gods & religious communities. Not for LGBT Muslims who face years of being told their own religion views them as sinful, unnatural etc and the resulting poor mental health that will arise from this.

Their fears of Islam are not irrational in the slightest.




Except when it's not as I've provided you examples of.




You're right. Its validity is 0 regardless because its definition is so generalised and vague.

Again you select specific examples, i have provided examples here (List of Islamophobic incidents - Wikipedia) of irrational islamophobic attacks.

And i have provided examples where it is. I would think that the irrational attacks outnumber the ration fear

I cannot agree, a few misrepresentations does not invalidate the word.

 

[ChristineM]

"Can be",islamophobia,dislike of or prejudice against Islam or Muslims, especially as a political force,there's no mention of irrationality there,really there should be because that's what phobia means.

The dislike or phobia can be, usually is, irrational and based on ignorance

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Again you select specific examples, i have provided examples here (List of Islamophobic incidents - Wikipedia) of irrational islamophobic attacks.

And i have provided examples where it is. I would think that the irrational attacks outnumber the ration fear

Here's the thing though. Your list doesn't invalidate mine. You've not provided an argument for why rational concerns should be categorised under a word that literally means 'irrational fear of Islam' beyond "that's the definition" which is really just circular reasoning.

I have no dispute with listing incidents like the ones mentioned in your link as Islamophobia - if the term was only to cover bigotry/prejudice/discrimination against Muslims or Islam. The point I'm making is that Islamophobia was never intended to refer to just these sorts of instances. It has been designed in such a way to group concerns with, and criticism of, Islam as an ideology together with instances of xenophobia, prejudice and bigoted tropes as if they're on the same intellectual level. This is insidious and it is deliberate.

Do you want an example? Here's the All-Party Parliamentary Group on British Muslim's definition of Islamophobia:

"Islamophobia is rooted in racism and is a type of racism that targets expressions of Muslimness or perceived Muslimness"

Here's the thing though. Look at the wording. What is an expression of Muslimness? It's pretty open-ended and can include anything.

Under this vague definition, the teaching of LGBT issues in English schools (i.e. that they exist) is Islamophobic because it contravenes Islamic doctrines and how parents will teach them to their kids. This can be considered an expression of Muslimness. It also seeks to undermine Islamic homophobia, which can be considered an expression of Muslimness, of facts. Obviously not all Muslims express their faith this way, but it doesn't need to be something all Muslims do.

Well the Anderton Park protesters know this because they and their supporters are not shy about using the term to describe anybody who disagrees with them and/or their methods. Whether it be the school's headteacher, Birmingham City Council for seeking an injunction which pushes the protest line away from the school gates. They're all Islamophobes for questioning these parents' rights to object to tolerance & diversity when it isn't for them.

I cannot agree, a few misrepresentations does not invalidate the word.

You're right. The vague nature of the definition and its deliberate use - which takes advantage of that vague definition - to tar legitimate criticism with the same brush as xenophobia invalidates the word.