Continuity of Consciousness

[Kriya Yogi]

All living things live in a spectrum of consciousness. Very low to extremely high. In other words a narrow confined, darkened, tamasic, ignorant level all the way to a vast, expansive, wise, loving, and spiritually advanced level of being. I believe being a human to begin with is a blessing in of itself because we're already more advanced then all living things. We're also the only thing that can experience God in the highest way. That is freedom, love, and bliss in realizing God within. Of course at the human level there is another spectrum of low to high consciousness as well. So yes even some of the lowest level beings such as bacteria have a soul and through many incarnations they to will eventually advance through all higher organisms with the upward guidance of God's spiritual upliftment for all.

 

[Penumbra]

Since I don't believe consciousness is based on matter, this wouldn't be an issue for me.

So you believe that if a teleportation device was invented that has the capability of disassembling and reassembling a person very far away, the soul will be able to stay with the new body? You seemed to imply you feel this way about my clone example as well.

How does the soul know that it's the same body once it is reassembled or cloned? How does it know to stay with it?

What if I am cloned, and both me and my clone are around? Or if instead of disassembling and reassembling me, the teleportation machine simply reassembles a second copy of me at the destination while leaving the original intact. Does the soul split into two of its selves? How would that work under your worldview?

 

[Penumbra]

I had this discussion with a friend once (not about copying AI in software and copying it) but about continuity of consciousness and how it might be feasible to transfer a mind to a computer. We decided that it might work to convert a small amount of the brain at a time to computer components -- always leaving it "on" and always making sure the person is capable of consciousness during every step of the way. Like an Archimedes' ship of consciousness.

We also decided it would be best if we didn't discuss how much we could change at a time while safely feeling like we were preserving continuity of consciousness, we just plugged our ears and went "la la la la" if either tried to raise THAT business...

Oh, we also decided not to try tackling the question of what happens if it's possible to reassemble the brain after it's been completely piece-by-piece converted to computer. I think we decided that since it was "off" that it would then constitute a clone and not a continuous consciousness, but tip toed around it for the most part.

I think the teleporation machine and the ability to transfer a mind to a computer are basically the same thing.

If a teleportation machine is capable of analyzing a person, disassembling them, and reassembling them at some distance location, then conceivably it is temporarily storing their information in a computer of some sort. So transferring a mind to a computer seems to be an intermediate step of the process. The teleporation machine has additional requirements like needing to be quick and being able to build something on the molecular level, but the processing of consciousness is basically the same.

 

[Penumbra]

One thing to add, Penumbra, is that the soul 'attaches' itself to a body or place based on its own state of consciousness. I will elaborate. Please forgive my use of words at times too, I put them in ' ' because I am not sure of the most accurate word to use.

I am not certain if this explains any significant role in how a soul will remain the same within a particular body, but it could.

There are so many factors that influence where the soul goes. Every experience has an affect on the Consciousness/Self. That is how it develops/evolves. Every experience creates an impression on the Consciousness and shapes the Self in some way. So, if in my lifetime I spend a lot of time thinking of a particular place, or person, or animal I will likely reincarnate in a body and place that is linked to whatever made the biggest impression and influence on my Self.

What you can take from this is two things: that every individual soul is unique- it is at its own level of evolution, and will have evolved differently. Every soul, according to the philosophy I adhere to, is considered to be a unique aspect of the Whole. So...everything is connected, but everything is a unique part.

I just don't understand the science of it. I can't elaborate on that, unfortunately.

Can you clarify what you mean when you say that every soul is unique?

Are they unique simply because each one has had different experiences, or because each one has some unique quality about it that makes it permanently unique from all other Selves?

Several months ago in the Hindu DIR I started a thread about Origins in Hindu Cosmology and we talked in that thread. One of the things you said was:

"What I was taught is that though every soul has existed eternally, we have not always been living in the material universe. I think we exist in a neutral state of consciousness until some point when either it is our time to come or we experience the desire to come. And then our journey begins."

Would you say that, when Selves are originally existing in a neutral state before entering the material universe, they are all identical to one another? Or are they unique even at that point? Do they develop uniqueness after experiencing the material universe in different ways, or are they unique things even before entering the material universe?

And can you explain what it means to be conscious without the concept of time? For a soul to exist in a state without regard to time and space, that means consciousness must be able to function without time. From observation, it takes a certain amount of time to formulate even the most simple aspects of consciousness, such as realizing that one is aware, or forming a basic thought, etc.

 

[crimsonlung]

I think the teleporation machine and the ability to transfer a mind to a computer are basically the same thing.

If a teleportation machine is capable of analyzing a person, disassembling them, and reassembling them at some distance location, then conceivably it is temporarily storing their information in a computer of some sort. So transferring a mind to a computer seems to be an intermediate step of the process. The teleporation machine has additional requirements like needing to be quick and being able to build something on the molecular level, but the processing of consciousness is basically the same.

I'm getting in on this late, but, what about your mind? I work in software, the equivilent to the data that you would be transferring over would be just that, raw data. 1's and 0's. What about your mind? A computer can't make its own decisions, only decisions based on data or whatever its programmed to do. Your mind doesn't work like that, I can jump off a cliff right now if I wanted to, I can punch my computer screen if I wanted too, a computer wont punch a computer screen unless you program it to, and there is never a way to get around that, no matter how much technology improves, you cant give a mind to a computer.

 

[Penumbra]

I believe the exact same thing Madhuri does. Every soul was endowed by God its own individual and freedom to choose how they want to live and experience life. The actions of past and present lives decide exactly what body you incarnate into and where and when. There are no random unexplained things in God's eyes. Everything happens for a karmic reason and there are no accidents. Even though it may seem like it in our present moment. The whole goal of life is to allow himself (God) expression in many infinite ways and at the same time give his souls, who are eternal and eternally connected to him the ability to experience lives through many different incarnations. Through these incarnations it allows the soul to develop wisdom through experience until finally they realize that life itself is not going to give them the lasting happiness and joy each soul deep down really wants. Each soul has a deep down longing for bliss and it is seen in each and every being and the way we live. We must continually reincarnate until we once again realize the divine plan. That plan is to realize our oneness with God again. We are never separate, but our identity to our personal ego and life sees it as such. Once enlightenment, samadhi, freedom in God, or however you call it is achieved the karmic tie to reincarnation is dissolved in God and his eternal bliss and love. God's ultimate goal for every individual soul is to express God in his infinite vast nature until one incarnation we realize there is more to life then just living it and we finally realize our own Godly nature within.

For clarification, would you say that you adhere to advaita philosophy?

 

[Meow Mix]

I think the teleporation machine and the ability to transfer a mind to a computer are basically the same thing.

If a teleportation machine is capable of analyzing a person, disassembling them, and reassembling them at some distance location, then conceivably it is temporarily storing their information in a computer of some sort. So transferring a mind to a computer seems to be an intermediate step of the process. The teleporation machine has additional requirements like needing to be quick and being able to build something on the molecular level, but the processing of consciousness is basically the same.

Well, but that seems to be cloning them to the machine though: if it just scans the brain as it disassembles it and builds it in the computer, there's a discontinuation of the consciousness.

But if you just take a small part of the brain and convert it into a computer somehow so that the brain is still 9/10ths (or something) biological material, it's arguably the same consciousness. Then if you take another tenth of the brain and convert it to a machine, it's arguably still the same person, and so on... if you did it over time and only converted small amounts, it's easier to see how a person would have continuity of consciousness the whole time right up until they are 100% machine.

 

[Penumbra]

it is not a matter of cloning actually there is stem cells in primitive streak which exisit in coccyx will grow again in resurrection.

the same person will grow and God will give him back his soul.

So you believe that god will regrow a person in the afterlife based on their stem cells? As in, you believe that in the afterlife, you will have a physical body, and it will be identical to the one you have now (since it has the same genes)?

What happens if the stem cells are destroyed while you are living in your body now? Does that deny you an afterlife?

 

[Penumbra]

So yes, every animal, plant, bacteria etc. is considered to have a soul.

So yes even some of the lowest level beings such as bacteria have a soul

Madhuri and Kriya,

The concept of a bacterium having a soul presents some ramifications I'd like to discuss. As you know, the body consists of cells. And these cells are actually more complex than bacteria.

Do the cells of the human body have souls of their own? If so, that would mean that rather than being one soul, my body is host to trillions or more souls. How can the souls be layered like this, with one soul ("me") being made up of countless smaller souls (my cells)?

If each basic unit of life like a bacteria or cell or something like that has a soul, then that means for complex multicellular creatures, their personal soul is not attached to any specific matter, since each cell is already accounted for by a soul.

 

[Penumbra]

I'm getting in on this late, but, what about your mind? I work in software, the equivilent to the data that you would be transferring over would be just that, raw data. 1's and 0's. What about your mind? A computer can't make its own decisions, only decisions based on data or whatever its programmed to do. Your mind doesn't work like that, I can jump off a cliff right now if I wanted to, I can punch my computer screen if I wanted too, a computer wont punch a computer screen unless you program it to, and there is never a way to get around that, no matter how much technology improves, you cant give a mind to a computer.

Well yeah, but the point is that it's hypothetical. Not based on current computers but on future, better computers. Nobody here believes that teleporters or computers powerful enough to emulate human consciousness currently exist with all of the proper programming expertise as well.

The primary goal of the thread is to discuss what consciousness is and how it can be continuous. The technology involved like cloning, computers, memory transfers, or memory erases, as well as metaphysical things like reincarnation and afterlives, are merely scenarios and tools to address the central question.

In addition, how do you know that true artificial intelligence will *never* be possible?

 

[Penumbra]

Well, but that seems to be cloning them to the machine though: if it just scans the brain as it disassembles it and builds it in the computer, there's a discontinuation of the consciousness.

But if you just take a small part of the brain and convert it into a computer somehow so that the brain is still 9/10ths (or something) biological material, it's arguably the same consciousness. Then if you take another tenth of the brain and convert it to a machine, it's arguably still the same person, and so on... if you did it over time and only converted small amounts, it's easier to see how a person would have continuity of consciousness the whole time right up until they are 100% machine.

So you propose not only scanning the brain bit by bit, but also disassembling it bit by bit in real time as it is scanned and replacing it with the partially completed consciousness?

That would bring up questions of irreducible complexity, but it may be possible. It's kind of like how the body regenerates itself, with each cell being replaced by another cell (except for a few cortex and other cells that stay put). Each neuron would have to be replaced by a software equivalent either one at a time or only a few a time. Because during the switching process, there can not ever be switched so much material at once that the consciousness is unable to continue during that time.

 

[crimsonlung]

how do you know that true artificial intelligence will *never* be possible?

If by true artificial intelligence you mean to be able to make its own decision without reliance on a calculation, then no. No matter what, a computer only does what its told, which is a calculation. it can not analyze a situation, it can not interpret love or fear, hate, angst, etc.

But if your talking about cars that drive us, oh yea, we can definitely come up with that, in fact, we are closer than you think to it.

 

[Meow Mix]

If by true artificial intelligence you mean to be able to make its own decision without reliance on a calculation, then no. No matter what, a computer only does what its told, which is a calculation. it can not analyze a situation, it can not interpret love or fear, hate, angst, etc.

But if your talking about cars that drive us, oh yea, we can definitely come up with that, in fact, we are closer than you think to it.

What do you have to say about the evidence that suggests human minds are emergent properties of brains, then?

Do you believe minds are somehow separate from the physical brain?

 

[zenzero]

Friend Penumbra,

Continuity of Consciousness

Personal understanding:
To start with if one takes CONSCIOUSNESS and nothing else which for human understanding is labelled *nothingness* or *Brahman or *GOD* etc. and then accept the BIG BANG.
More at:

Hinduism and Big Bang Theory: The Cosmic Event in Upanishads and other Hindu Scriptures

We find that out of this consciousness came out forms and then since these forms are energy which are parts of the *whole* energy or existence it extinguishes when the energy of that form gets over.
Further again from the above site:

The evolution of the manifold is succeeded by its involution and reabsorption back into the unitary state, only to be re-emitted after a period of potentiality. These processes are governed entirely by the tension between the forces among themselves and no extraneous agency is necessary to account for them.

The cycle continues which is *evolution*.
Gautama's point was that the source of this whole play or maya or illusion is that CONSCIOUSNESS [universal energy] out of which forms [individual energy] came from and this individual energy finally merges with that universal energy whereas before him followers of sanatan dharma accepted that both are true.
gautama therefore never brought in the subject of *god* in his purview so as to remain totally focused on consciousness alone as after merging the subject is no more of any importance as the perceiver is no longer there.

Love & rgds

 

[crimsonlung]

What do you have to say about the evidence that suggests human minds are emergent properties of brains, then?

Do you believe minds are somehow separate from the physical brain?

I don't believe human minds are emrgent properties of the brain, I think there is the brain and the mind and they grow independently. If we didn't have a mind, we would be robots I think.

What evidence is there?

 

[Penumbra]

If by true artificial intelligence you mean to be able to make its own decision without reliance on a calculation, then no. No matter what, a computer only does what its told, which is a calculation. it can not analyze a situation, it can not interpret love or fear, hate, angst, etc.

What makes you say that?

The way typical software works currently, with the computer running through a script of commands, then yes, it merely follows what it is programmed to do.

But the brain itself basically just consists of neurons, little cells that together are able to manipulate information. Consciousness is still not understood, but more is learned every day, and I see no evidence that suggests that it's anything other than a biological machine that eventually could be recreated in artificial form.

I think making predictions that something will never be possible is a bit unwise considering the speed with which technology progresses. It may or may not ever be accomplished, but to say with certainty that it cannot doesn't make much sense.

 

[Penumbra]

I don't believe human minds are emrgent properties of the brain, I think there is the brain and the mind and they grow independently. If we didn't have a mind, we would be robots I think.

What evidence is there?

Changing the chemical makeup of the brain changes emotions, feelings, aspects of the mind. Removing parts of the brain can remove or decrease a person's ability to feel empathy, feel aggression, process memories, etc.

 

[Meow Mix]

I don't believe human minds are emrgent properties of the brain, I think there is the brain and the mind and they grow independently. If we didn't have a mind, we would be robots I think.

What evidence is there?

Changing the chemical makeup of the brain changes emotions, feelings, aspects of the mind. Removing parts of the brain can remove or decrease a person's ability to feel empathy, feel aggression, process memories, etc.

What Penumbra said.

 

[Penumbra]

To elaborate on the concept of the mind being an emergent property of the brain, here are some quick sources:

Brain damage can change how one responds to moral problems:
Damage to brain limits empathy / Prefrontal cortex injury found to alter moral judgment - SFGate

Spectrum of empathy found in brain:
'Spectrum of empathy' found in the brain - life - 18 September 2006 - New Scientist

Level of aggression linked to brain damage:
Clinical Correlates of Aggressive Behavior After Traumatic Brain Injury -- Tateno et al. 15 (2): 155 -- J Neuropsychiatry Clin Neurosci

When a person has a stroke (brain damage due to a problem with blood supply to the brain), they sometimes have personality changes:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1738868/pdf/v075p01708.pdf
Stroke and the Brain

And consider the Lobotomy:
Lobotomy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Plus there’s things like Down Syndrome. Down Syndrome occurs due to having an extra chromosome (a material thing) and causes a severe impairment of cognitive ability in addition to other effects. If I was born with Down Syndrome, my personality would have been completely different than it is now.
Down syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


One can spend considerable time reading up on these sorts of topics; these are just a few quick resources. Some of this stuff about morality and personality being affected by changes in the physical brain brings up a lot of questions regarding religious claims like free will, karma, souls, etc. If anyone here wants to elaborate as to how your view of consciousness, souls, Selves, and so forth deal with this concept, then it is appreciated.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Some religions assert that there is an eternal self. Other religions assert that the self is temporary but that something lives on.

My question is, what is it, philosophically speaking, that links one moment of consciousness to another moment of consciousness that allows it to be considered the same being?

My understanding is that the underlying continuity of consciousness comes not from the brain itself but from the quantum fluctuations of ZPE (Zero Point Energy) cosmic field that appears to be omnipresent throughout space.

Someone who has done lots of research on this is Stuart Hameroff who teamed with Roger Penrose to establish a working theory. For those who are interested, here is a link....

Quantum Consciousness

CONCLUSIONS

Brain processes relevant to consciousness extend downward within neurons to the level of cytoskeletal microtubules.

An explanation for conscious experience requires (in addition to neuroscience and psychology) a modern form of pan-protopsychism in which proto-conscious qualia are embedded in the basic level of reality, as described by modern physics.

Roger Penrose's physics of objective reduction (OR) connects brain structures to fundamental reality, leading to the Penrose-Hameroff model of quantum computation with objective reduction in microtubules (orchestrated objective reduction: Orch OR).

The Orch OR model is consistent with known neurophysiological processes, generates testable predictions, and is the type of fundamental, multi-level, interdisciplinary theory which may account for the mind's enigmatic features.