Conviction and punishment for adultery/fornication in Islam.

[Smart_Guy]

Better get lashing my parents then man. You pay for the flight over here, and I'll even give you the whips.

Come on man, don't say that. Bless your parents. Please don't talk about them like that.

Besides, I have no right to judge your parents, and Islam doesn't too. It's quiet obvious due to several reasons, if you ask me, and I believe you know that too.

 

[Kirran]

Come on man, don't say that. Bless your parents. Please don't talk about them like that.

Besides, I have no right to judge your parents, and Islam isn't too. It's quiet obvious due to several reasons, if you ask me, and I believe you know that too.

If you're talking about punishing people who commit adultery, you're talking about my parents.

I think it's good in issues such as this to give personal examples, to help people see the implications of their stances.

 

[Smart_Guy]

I'll be honest dude, I don't totally see how that addressed my point. The fact is that there isn't a conceivable benefit to legislating against extra-marital sex that I can see, regardless of any other laws existing within a society.

Let's just say that everything you said isn't really helping or addressing the crises I mentioned. The crises I mentioned are still there and your points don't change that. Which is more important, absolute freedom causing the crises I mentioned, or a moderated freedom to get rid of those crises? I personally am with sacrificing my freedom to have sex with tens of women at random for the sake of not giving a living hell to a child. The two involved in absolute freedom of sex could be okay with what they could bring upon them selves (STD, unwanted pregnancy, etc.), but the many children who came to this life because of it and faced hell are innocent and don't deserve it. Things do go safe sometimes, I know, but in so many different cases the crises I mentioned are caused by it. In my opinion, a community is one that cares for all of its members too, not one that cares just for the individuals.

 

[Kirran]

Let's just say that everything you said isn't really helping or addressing the crises I mentioned. The crises I mentioned are still there and your points don't change that. Which is more important, absolute freedom causing the crises I mentioned, or a moderated freedom to get rid of those crises? I personally am with sacrificing my freedom to have sex with tens of women at random for the sake of not giving a living hell to a child. The two involved in absolute freedom of sex could be okay with what they could bring upon them selves (STD, unwanted pregnancy, etc.), but the many children who came to this life because of it and faced hell are innocent and don't deserve it. Things do go safe sometimes, I know, but in so many different cases the crises I mentioned are caused by it. In my opinion, a community is one that cares for all of its members too, not one that cares just for the individuals.

No but that's exactly my point. Making it illegal wouldn't stop it happening. People who are having sex outside marriage aren't going to not do so because it's illegal. So you still have the same problems, and you reduce freedoms for people as well. There is no benefit to doing so.

 

[Smart_Guy]

If you're talking about punishing people who commit adultery, you're talking about my parents.

I think it's good in issues such as this to give personal examples, to help people see the implications of their stances.

Um, I'm talking about Islam. Not all people are Muslims and not all communities are Muslims. I thought that was so obvious.

Non Muslims have their laws and I can't judge them for practicing their own stuff in their own places.

From where did you get such understanding and impression?

You know that the Quran says "you have your own religion and I have my own", I think.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I do not know of anywhere in the west where adultery is a crime.
However it may be shown as a reason for a civil divorce.
In some countries prostitution may be still be a crime. Though i am not certain.
Private sexual relations between consenting adults is not a crime.

 

[Kirran]

Um, I'm talking about Islam. Not all people are Muslims and not all communities are Muslims. I thought that was so obvious.

Non Muslims have their laws and I can't judge them for practicing their own stuff in their own places.

From where did you get such understanding and impression?

You know that the Quran says "you have your own religion and I have my own", I think.

Well surely when we discuss legal punishments such as lashing, that's Islamic sharia? While there are exceptions (which are hardly exemplars inandof themselves) this generally applies to kuffar minorities as well as Muslims. In addition to applying to Muslims of different views.

 

[Smart_Guy]

No but that's exactly my point. Making it illegal wouldn't stop it happening. People who are having sex outside marriage aren't going to not do so because it's illegal. So you still have the same problems, and you reduce freedoms for people as well. There is no benefit to doing so.

Yes but that logic means non Muslim countries should not make rape, murder, and similar illegal too!

Nothing in this life makes anything perfect. People should do their best. No laws/rules ever can stop anything in full, but they certainly greatly make a difference if considerably put and performed correctly.

 

[Smart_Guy]

I do not know of anywhere in the west where adultery is a crime.
However it may be shown as a reason for a civil divorce.
In some countries prostitution may be still be a crime. Though i am not certain.
Private sexual relations between consenting adults is not a crime.

That's a very well put view. Thank you for sharing.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I personally don't believe stoning is now a valid punishment at this very moment for one simple reason. It is that the Quran has a general punishment for adultery that does not mention stoning, and it is known that Quran is the first source of rules/laws in Islam.

I think people should oppose stoning because it's inhumane, outdated, and unnecessary, not because a particular book doesn't mention it as a punishment.

My personal view is that adultery, meaning cheating on one's spouse in this context, generally shouldn't be a crime per the law, but if it were, the punishment definitely shouldn't be corporal.

 

[Kirran]

Yes but that logic means non Muslim countries should not make rape, murder, and similar illegal too!

Nothing in this life makes anything perfect. People should do their best. No laws/rules ever can stop anything in full, but they certainly greatly make a difference if considerably put and performed correctly.

Well there seem to be genuine results in reducing their incidence in legislating murder and rape - also, their restriction does not impede legitimate freedoms.

You seem to insinuate that people who have sex outside marriage are basically crazed sex freaks - they have sex with loads of people without a thought as to the consequences. Again, I would remind you that you're talking about my parents here. The vast majority of people who engage in extramarital sex are doing it out of genuine feeling, as an expression of intimacy.

 

[Kirran]

I do not know of anywhere in the west where adultery is a crime.
However it may be shown as a reason for a civil divorce.
In some countries prostitution may be still be a crime. Though i am not certain.
Private sexual relations between consenting adults is not a crime.

R.e. prostitution, it's illegal almost across the board in the USA for example!

And in the vast majority of the world outside the West.

Here's a map.

Prostitution law - Wikipedia

 

[Smart_Guy]

Well surely when we discuss legal punishments such as lashing, that's Islamic sharia? While there are exceptions (which are hardly exemplars inandof themselves) this generally applies to kuffar minorities as well as Muslims. In addition to applying to Muslims of different views.

That's too much details, and they are controversial. This complicates things. I'm talking about raw laws and rules, not some country or faction, or terminologies used to represent Islam.

All I know is that if your parent come to Saudi Arabia, no one has the right to do anything to them per the laws of Islam, as long as they meet the requirements to enter and agree to follow the rules inside the country. I personally would defend them should anyone think of harming them if I get the chance to do that. It is not their fault practicing their own beliefs in their own country.

 

[Kirran]

That's too much details, and they are controversial. This complicates things. I'm talking about raw laws and rules, not some country or faction, or terminologies used to represent Islam.

All I know is that if your parent come to Saudi Arabia, no one has the right to do anything to them per the laws of Islam, as long as they meet the requirements to enter and agree to follow the rules inside the country. I personally would defend them should anyone think of harming them if I get the chance to do that. It is not their fault practicing their own beliefs in their own country.

Well laws don't exist in a vacuum, they always exist in real-world contexts and situations.

Sure, I'll bring a Bhagavad Gita with me to Saudi and pray to Shiva in public, you can protect me

I do respect your sentiment.

 

[Smart_Guy]

I think people should oppose stoning because it's inhumane, outdated, and unnecessary, not because a particular book doesn't mention it as a punishment.

My personal view is that adultery, meaning cheating on one's spouse in this context, generally shouldn't be a crime per the law, but if it were, the punishment definitely shouldn't be corporal.

That's a very well put view.

I agree with a big part of it.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

R.e. prostitution, it's illegal almost across the board in the USA for example!

And in the vast majority of the world outside the West.

Here's a map.

Prostitution law - Wikipedia

The map does not show..
I can not remember when I last heard of someone being prosecuted for prostitution in the Uk.
Thouugh people can be prosecuted for soliciting in the street.

The Usa has double standards on the subject, as paid sex is rife. And only the lowest strata is ever prosecuted

 

[David1967]

I believe adultery/fornication caused, is causing and will keep causing harm to society.

I agree. And I think the evidence is supportive of your opinion here.

Wouldn't that make society have full business in it as it is the concerned victim?

I guess that would depend on to what extent. To educate people of the harm done by adultery? Marriage, children etc. Absolutely. I think the contention (modern times) is when the penalty is bodily harm (lashes) or execution. This is a sensitive subject for sure considering the cultural and religious setting. I try to look at it like this. Could I take a whip to someone guilty of adultery? No I could not. Could I stone to death someone guilty of adultery? No I could not. Banish them from town? maybe. Trying to answer in context. Hopefully not offending.

 

[Kirran]

The map does not show..
I can not remember when I last heard of someone being prosecuted for prostitution in the Uk.
Thouugh people can be prosecuted for soliciting in the street.

The Usa has double standards on the subject, as paid sex is rife. And only the lowest strata is ever prosecuted

Click the link below, it'll come up after a second!

Oh yeah, the regulations are awful across the board. I think prostitution is a big problem, and I think it's damaging to support the industry. But I also think it's safer legal and regulated than pushed underground.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Sure, I'll bring a Bhagavad Gita with me to Saudi and pray to Shiva in public, you can protect me

Come on now, your giving the impression you intentionally ignored the part when I said:

...as long as they meet the requirements to enter and agree to follow the rules inside the country.

(And I know you didn't ignore it)

Now I'm worried that you didn't read my previous posts well! Wanna start all over again?

Ah, ignore that last question please

 

[Kirran]

Come on now, your giving the impression you intentionally ignored the part when I said:

(And I know you didn't ignore it)

Now I'm worried that you didn't read my previous posts well! Wanna start all over again?

Ah, ignore that last question please

Hahaha! I was focusing on the last part of the post - 'practicing their own beliefs in the country'! I was only kidding with you on that part though.