Conviction and punishment for adultery/fornication in Islam.

[Madhuri]

Hinduism isn't very concerned with imposing laws on people. It offers advice and guidelines, teaching us how to live a good life, how to bring about positive outcomes based on fundamental truths, but then leaves people to decide what to do. The idea is that we learn from mistakes and become better, wiser individuals in the future...even though that generally means it can take multiple life times to gain such advancement.

Adultery is considered very bad in Hinduism. We are taught that it can destroy the family unit. It is advised that people do not have sex outside of marriage.

We are not taught to punish one another. However we are taught about Karma. If we cause misery to another, misery will come back to us. If we bring joy, we receive joy. Therefore cheating our spouse will inevitably bring negative consequences, whether immediate or sometime later. However if someone were to, for example, beat or kill a person for committing adultery, they too would eventually receive negative karma for their act of violence.

 

[Aupmanyav]

In what belief is this?

It is not a belief, it is a social arrangement to allow a woman to have a child if the husband is incapable of doing that or is dead.
Niyoga - Wikipedia

 

[arthra]

I'd like to speak of, discuss and share five points about convicting the adultery act in Islam. Those five are:
1- Requirement for adultery punishment convection. 2- Different punishments for adultery.
3- My view about stoning. 4- Personal comments.
5- How it compares to other religions. This is more of a point of participation from other members.

Thanks for sharing "Smart Guy" the issues of adultery in Islam... Being a Baha'i I'll be happy to share how Baha'is relate to the issues you've raised. I've lived in a Baha'i community off and on since 1965 and am married to a Baha'i as well and have been active in my community most of my life...

The topic of "Adultery" comes up in the Kitab-i-Aqdas revealed by Baha'u'llah as follows:

6. or adultery # 19

The Arabic word "zina", here translated as "adultery",
signifies both fornication and adultery. It applies not only to
sexual relations between a married person and someone who
is not his or her spouse, but also to extramarital sexual
intercourse in general. One form of "zina" is rape. The only
penalty prescribed by Bahá'u'lláh is for those who commit
fornication (see note 77); penalties for other kinds of sexual
offence are left to the Universal House of Justice to
determine.

Also:

Ye are forbidden to commit adultery, sodomy and lechery. Avoid them, O concourse of the faithful. By the righteousness of God! Ye have been called into being to purge the world from the defilement of evil passions. This is what the Lord of all mankind hath enjoined upon you, could ye but perceive it. He who relateth himself to the All-Merciful and committeth satanic deeds, verily he is not of Me. Unto this beareth witness every atom, pebble, tree and fruit, and beyond them this ever-proclaiming, truthful and trustworthy Tongue.

~ Bahá'u'lláh, from a Tablet - translated from the Arabic

(Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol. I, p. 57)

So adultery (Zina) is forbidden to Baha'is...Now how this could come up in a Baha'i community is perhaps before the elected Local Spiritual Assembly.. Maybe a married couple has gone to the Assembly because one partner has been unfaithful and they may be close to a divorce. In such a case the consultation is confidential and after consulting the couple may be referred to a Marriage therapist or psychologist... depending on the outcome.. The couple may move toward a divorce. In such a case they have what we call a Year of Patience.. in which they live in separate abodes and have no intimate contact ... If after counseling has failed and they still cannot reconcile a divorce would be granted and they can pursue that.

In the case of someone who is say promiscuous in their relations.. The Assembly would likely refer them to counseling with a therapist...failing that they might have their administrative rights in the Faith removed by the National Assembly.. They are no longer a Baha'i in good standing. They cannot vote or hold any office nor can they marry in the Faith. If they somehow recover from their behaviour they can later request to be reinstated.

 

[BilliardsBall]

This is irrelevant to the topic (off-topic and against the section rules, I believe), but out of respect, I'd gladly respond to you.

She's been released already. It was part of the investigation that revealed that the act was done with the consent of the three whom were all freed to return to their countries (or continue whatever they were doing there perhaps). Charges were all dropped. But I feel you and don't disagree with you. She shouldn't have been taken in. I wish they didn't take her in.

Also, three British people get themselves involved in such a feud in a foreign country in acts in violation of the country rules? Dude, why don't they do their own mess in their own country. and let their country deal the that mess when it is reported? When they entered the country, they agreed to follow the rules. In UAE, it is not allowed for a woman to stay in a closed private place with a non relative. Rules are rules. Yet they broke it and the charges were all dropped later.

But anyway, this is off-topic. You are welcome to comment in-topic, or you're welcome to start another thread about this one in the appropriate section.

From the OP: "Different punishments for adultery."

In the West, a woman claiming rape isn't imprisoned for adultery. When speaking of heinous Muslim imprisonment, we of necessity must discuss common and civil law and where it is in tension with theocratic rule of law.

Also, you speak as if this is one isolated incident in the UAE. It was most certainly not.

 

[Smart_Guy]

From the OP: "Different punishments for adultery."

In the West, a woman claiming rape isn't imprisoned for adultery. When speaking of heinous Muslim imprisonment, we of necessity must discuss common and civil law and where it is in tension with theocratic rule of law.

Also, you speak as if this is one isolated incident in the UAE. It was most certainly not.

Well, it is not that all countries in the world are innocent or have single isolated incidents.

The thing is, anyway, the OP is about a law in its essence. It is not about a country.

As for the West... how many Brock Turner look-a-like events happened? No country is innocent.

 

[FearGod]

R.e. prostitution, it's illegal almost across the board in the USA for example!

And in the vast majority of the world outside the West.

Here's a map.

Prostitution law - Wikipedia

Don't you think making it illegal is kind of restriction in human's freedom
for their personnel affairs?

 

[Kirran]

Don't you think making it illegal is kind of restriction in human's freedom
for their personnel affairs?

I think it should be legal and tightly regulated.

I think it's a harmful practice, and people shouldn't do it, it's immoral to me, but it's going to happen either way so it should be legal so that people can get help and have their welfare monitored.

 

[FearGod]

I think it should be legal and tightly regulated.

I think it's a harmful practice, and people shouldn't do it, it's immoral to me, but it's going to happen either way so it should be legal so that people can get help and have their welfare monitored.

Are you with making drugs legal as well?

 

[Kirran]

Are you with making drugs legal as well?

Certainly, yes. We have seen the negative effects of keeping drugs illegal. We have seen the massive damage it has wrought upon countries in Latin America in particular, how it has ruined so many lives. If they're legal, we can regulate it, drive the criminals out of business and give people help in getting over their addictions.

 

[FearGod]

Certainly, yes. We have seen the negative effects of keeping drugs illegal. We have seen the massive damage it has wrought upon countries in Latin America in particular, how it has ruined so many lives. If they're legal, we can regulate it, drive the criminals out of business and give people help in getting over their addictions.

Why to help the drug addicts if they wanted it?don't you think they should be
free in being addicts even though that they may cause harm to the society?

 

[Kirran]

Why to help the drug addicts if they wanted it?don't you think they should be
free in being addicts even though that they may cause harm to the society?

No. I think people with diseases should be helped in curing those diseases. Drug addiction is a mental affliction.

 

[FearGod]

No. I think people with diseases should be helped in curing those diseases. Drug addiction is a mental affliction.

You mean they're free to damage their own bodies but we should try to cure what they
intended to damage, what if they don't want any help and they caused harm to the society,
do you think we should stop them or they should be free to keep on their practice?

 

[Kirran]

You mean they're free to damage their own bodies but we should try to cure what they
intended to damage, what if they don't want any help and they caused harm to the society,
do you think we should stop them or they should be free to keep on their practice?

You're saying, I think, what if somebody has a drug addiction but doesn't want to do anything about it? I guess we leave them alone, like we do with people addicted to drugs which are already legal, such as tobacco. But we restrict where they can use them, tax the drugs heavily and do what we can to educate people as to the dangerous impacts of these drugs.

Much better than the current system, where the ones who do want help have problems coming forward to ask for it!

 

[Shad]

Thank you very much for the explanation in red.

Let's compare Saudi Arabia with USA and the UK to get an answer. Here I've never heard of a case where children are lost for not knowing their fathers who ran away, orphanages are not common here and the majority of the children in them are of deceased parent (not many anyway), no single young mothers with bad income or no jobs are impregnated and left or gave birth and left with the child, young prostitutes looking for a living is not common here (I personally could even find one), it is not known to see prostitutes controlled by pimps, abortion is not a problem to badly worry about... if we compare it with USA and the UK (with all due respect), I think there is a huge difference. I could be wrong in this, so feedback is appreciated.

You confuse laws with values people teach their children and practice in their life. Some families never teach their children good values. Some people never practice good values. A law is not going to make people without said values good parents or spouses.

KSA is far more cultural and religiously homogeneous while America has large minorities in excess to KSA total population which creates diversity . KSA is not an immigrant nation while America is. America is a primary target for immigration worldwide while KSA isn't It's European population is from many different cultures; Irish, German, Russian, French, English, etc. Christianity in America is not unified by an organization nor the state. Point being there is no single group that can be identified to represent the general population. Due to diversity government must form compromises between various view points which at times comes at a cost to groups in opposition. Also the government is based on the individual citizens not a monarchy nor religion.

I would advise you to look at the America demographics for the issues you brought up. The numbers and categories may surprise you.

As for completely getting rid of problems, that's impossible for any law to do. But that does not mean the USA should allow rape and murder, for example, just because it cannot be completely stopped.

Which are a violation of a person. Marriage is a social contract thus is not the same as murder nor rape.

Rape and murder already happen there, but imagine they get free passes, what would happen?

Hyperbole

It will get way much worse, specially rape. Laws are meant to reduce problems as much as possible, wanting to stop them completely, even if they can't. That does not mean we just stand there and watch.

That is not the function of government in Western civilization. The state is not used to impose values on the citizen.

You must understand that there are vast cultural and government based differences between KSA and America which influence how people see the world. You look at the world through an Islamic lens. You see certain issues and solution according to how you think about the world. America has many competing view points that are often in conflict so there is no one solution everyone agrees upon. The laws you are putting forward can even be objected by Christians that agree with you on the basis of sin but not increasing the power of the government. Also considethe narratives of American history regarding monarchy and religious persecution. The topic being from an Islamic and KSA does give voice to this American narrative.

 

[Smart_Guy]

You confuse laws with values people teach their children and practice in their life. Some families never teach their children good values. Some people never practice good values. A law is not going to make people without said values good parents or spouses.

KSA is far more cultural and religiously homogeneous while America has large minorities in excess to KSA total population which creates diversity . KSA is not an immigrant nation while America is. America is a primary target for immigration worldwide while KSA isn't It's European population is from many different cultures; Irish, German, Russian, French, English, etc. Christianity in America is not unified by an organization nor the state. Point being there is no single group that can be identified to represent the general population. Due to diversity government must form compromises between various view points which at times comes at a cost to groups in opposition. Also the government is based on the individual citizens not a monarchy nor religion.

I would advise you to look at the America demographics for the issues you brought up. The numbers and categories may surprise you.

Which are a violation of a person. Marriage is a social contract thus is not the same as murder nor rape.

Hyperbole

That is not the function of government in Western civilization. The state is not used to impose values on the citizen.

You must understand that there are vast cultural and government based differences between KSA and America which influence how people see the world. You look at the world through an Islamic lens. You see certain issues and solution according to how you think about the world. America has many competing view points that are often in conflict so there is no one solution everyone agrees upon. The laws you are putting forward can even be objected by Christians that agree with you on the basis of sin but not increasing the power of the government. Also considethe narratives of American history regarding monarchy and religious persecution. The topic being from an Islamic and KSA does give voice to this American narrative.

Hmm... I see controversies here, but thank you for giving an opinion in this.

 

[Shad]

Hmm... I see controversies here, but thank you for giving an opinion in this.

I am not trying to start any controversies. You live in KSA which is not America. All my points were to establish how different KSA is to America. You have no real first hand experience of being a member of Western civilization. Without at least a basic understanding of this basis you may not understand why solutions that seem obvious to you are not obvious to the American government nor all Americans

 

[Smart_Guy]

I am not trying to start any controversies. You live in KSA which is not America. All my points were to establish how different KSA is to America. You have no real first hand experience of being a member of Western civilization. Without at least a basic understanding of this basis you may not understand why solutions that seem obvious to you are not obvious to the American government nor all Americans

I know. I meant controversial points.

I'm also am not judging or criticizing cultures. Being different or accepting of those differences does not mean there is no problem when that specific problem is mentioned. That does not change it or solve it.

That's my view anyway, a view that's been forced out of me by turning a thread in a Comparative Religions thread to a debate, something I didn't want in the first place. Threads in this section are to compare religions only, as per the rules. That's why I posted it here. Wanna debate, you're welcome to start one in the right place. I'd be more than happy to look at your views there.

 

[Shad]

I know. I meant controversial points.

I'm also am not judging or criticizing cultures. Being different or accepting of those differences does not mean there is no problem when that specific problem is mentioned. That does not change it or solve it.

The cultures of citizens and how they view government changes how they see solutions and which they see as viable.

that's my view anyway, a view that's been forced out of me by turning a thread in a Comparative Religions thread to a debate, something I didn't want in the first place. Threads in this section are to compare religions only, as per the rules. That's why I posted it here. Wanna debate, you're welcome to start one in the right place. I'd be more than happy to look at your views there.

You started to compare nations.

I am not trying to debate. I am trying to explain to you there are cultural differences so you can see why your solution is not one every American accepts. Some accept the illegality but not the punishment. Some reject both.

 

[Smart_Guy]

The cultures of citizens and how they view government changes how they see solutions and which they see as viable.

You started to compare nations.

I am not trying to debate. I am trying to explain to you there are cultural differences so you can see why your solution is not one every American accepts. Some accept the illegality but not the punishment. Some reject both.

I didn't start comparing nations, off-topic posts kept coming and I answered them in a way the poster can understand better. As I said, it was forced out of me due to posts questioning the OP of the nature of raising debates; e.g. the posts asked for it. And even so, they were about the said problems in themselves as I see as problems, not what people make of it. It was a reflex to off-topic posts, and they were not allowed in this section too.

I'm not saying anything about Americans accepting anything. That's part of what got raised by what's said above. I wouldn't criticize or judge what Americans accept in their own cultures on my own out of the blue, that's not me.

I'm sorry if I sounded like I'm criticizing and judging Americans here. If I did, it wasn't my intention.

 

[Baroodi]

Hold on a second. Are you telling us Muhammad had someone stoned for adultery despite it not being certain that he had adulterated?




Is it still adultery if a female slave is forced by her owner? Would the punishments apply in that situation?

For your first question, no you got me wrong, adultery is extremely difficult and almost impossible to prove by witnessing unless there is confession or pregnancy. The accused is innocent until proven otherwise
For your second quetjon, forced sex is not adultery, that is rape and is a crime on the side of the offender