Coping with evidence that Christianity morphed

[jonathan180iq]

Of course the problem with scriptures is the editing that probably happened in the early centuries - either intentional or unintentional. The fact that the character Jesus in the gospel of John said something doesn't necessarily imply that the real historical Jesus said something. We have to make educated guesses and the evidence isn't sufficient to decide much. There are probably 10 different theories about the historical Jesus that I'm aware of with my little bit of reading. All those theories were developed by smart scholars, but they weight facts differently.

It is definitely interesting that Christianity remains relevant after all this time. The world has changed a lot in 2000 years, but many of the ideas are still fresh.

Christianity remains in the center of the public square because it purposefully put itself there and has a solid 1,000 years of deeply ingrained cultural weight to back up those feelings. It may still feel fresh to some, but that's only because of it's ability to adapt and evolve, which is the very thing that I think you are talking about. Let's not forget that were it not for a few decisions made by a mostly biased council that you wouldn't even talking about the divinity of Christ. I'll go out on a limb and say that none of the founding Christian fathers would recognize modern Christianity as a thing worth celebrating. The divide between their world and ours is light years wide and is filled with many of the ills that the Gospels and other books were directly speaking against. What is totally acceptable and passable today as Christianity would have harshly scolded by the very people modern Christians quote in scripture, I do believe. The very ills that are outlined in the NT as plaguing Judaism at the time have become almost the cornerstone of modern Christianity. And the only reason is ever survived the middle ages and the renaissance was because it adapted to the ever-changing sociopolitical climate, just like any staying religion has to do.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Just to clarify, I've been an agnostic atheist most of my adult life (due to lack of evidence for God). My problem is that I have experienced things that seem like evidence for God or something transcending physical reality - synchronicities, ghosts, visions, dreams, precognition, telepathy, UFOs, etc. The frequency of these experiences is very low - like once in my life - but they were each very memorable. A few of these experiences fit the genre of Christianity. The historical evidence that Judaism evolved is even stronger IMO than the historical evidence that Christianity evolved. It's hard to believe the historical Jesus was divine if he didn't recognize that Judaism was not exactly true (IMO of course). I think all early Christians assumed that Jesus was a believing Jew. So I continually reevaluate these experiences. On the one hand, they are hard to dismiss. On the other hand, they don't make sense. I label myself as an atheist, but I keep reevaluating that.

Just wondering if others have this problem.

You don't believe because of some physical evidence - I wonder what it is that you're looking for that would convince you. Yet you then come out with things that many would love to experience.
It is a change in the heart that is required. You stand outside the door and don't want to go in for some reason. Perhaps it is not your time yet.

 

[wizanda]

Christianity and Yeshua are two different things....Christianity is a beast that evolved after, created by Simon the stone (petros), Paul and John.

It all depends on what historians you trust more of course.

So it isn't which historians you trust, yet which gospels, and accounts.

Your question of if he was divine is there within all accounts, claiming to be the son who was sent.... The problem is the god head status has slowly evolved over time, where now people believe he was God.

It's hard to believe the historical Jesus was divine if he didn't recognize that Judaism was not exactly true (IMO of course).

It isn't that Judaism isn't true; yet that it was hijacked by sects (Pharisees, Sadducees, and Levites)... Within the synoptic gospels, Yeshua clearly challenges all 3 as being false, and leading people away from God.

Think the thing with personal experience (having had loads), is to trust your heart, and not all the confusion within this world, as lots is upside down on purpose, to test those who are capable of reevaluating based on evidence.

 

[allfoak]

If the historical Jesus and the historical Yahweh were mundane and carnal, then how can a personal experience of Jesus or God make sense?

It would not make any sense.
This is a very difficult and controversial subject when seen in it's true light.
What can be seen from even a casual study like you present is that Christianity has not only changed but has become completely severed from its roots.
The changes that have occurred have rendered it vain and useless.
If the historical Jesus is not God then the whole thing comes tumbling down.


Once one begins to see that the story of the prodigal son was replaced with the historical god-man Jesus, you can begin to see the enormity of the problem.
The scriptures were written so that mankind would not lose the knowledge of how to return to the kingdom of heaven from where we came.

Jesus could have been any man.
He was a prodigal son just like us.
He just happened to be the first to overcome and return to the Father.
He liberated us from the mystery religions and the need for a teacher by becoming the pattern for us all, just like the entire book of Hebrews proclaims.

Jesus was like you and i, our brother.
This is the reason that it is impossible to find the historical Jesus.
The scriptures, in the pattern of humility, did not ever portray Jesus as God.
His life had to diminish so that the pattern could emerge.
He is not God, he became one with God.
There is a big difference.

The historical Jesus had to die to himself just like we are told to do.
He said to call no one teacher.
The true prophet is within.
The Logos, the son of God is to be found through a search within not without.
He cannot be found outside of ourselves.

Christianity has indeed changed.
Mankind has been robbed of the understanding necessary to return home.
It has been replaced with the jesus-god.

 

[sun rise]

I have had experiences as well but have looked at them differently. I've never been wedded to any particular historical doctrine so what I've experienced has not challenged what I've read. Or maybe another way of expressing it is from a couple of quotes I find helpful: "Don't believe everything you think" which reminds me how changeable the mind really is. The other is from one of my favorite movies "They Might Be Giants": "The human heart can see what's hidden to the eyes, and the heart knows things that the mind does not begin to understand." which to me has much the same message.

One thing that helps me is, as pointed out, scriptures have been edited and history lost and distorted. We can see it happen today when we see something on the news and some group starts claiming it never happened. I think the parts of the New Testament that I give credence to are two: The statement of the two greatest commandments - that of love. And second, the Sermon on the Mount.

And that provides a frame-of-reference for experiences. If an experience is one of love, I count it as real. If it tends to magnify my ego's sense of self-worth, I discount it.

 

[picnic]

If an experience is one of love, I count it as real. If it tends to magnify my ego's sense of self-worth, I discount it.

I agree with the values that motivate your policy, but I hate to relegate reality to whatever furthers our self-improvement aims. I know it is hard to know what is real, so maybe your approach has some merit. IDK

 

[picnic]

Think the thing with personal experience (having had loads), is to trust your heart, and not all the confusion within this world, as lots is upside down on purpose, to test those who are capable of reevaluating based on evidence.

Yes, I reached a similar conclusion eventually. Some of my experiences seemed a little like an ink blot test where they could mean one thing but they could also mean the opposite. They were kind of like a challenge to force me to think about various issues. Maybe it was simply my subconscious bringing concerns to the surface in ways that I could not ignore. Maybe it was my higher self trying to change my thinking. Maybe it was something else like God or a collective consciousness... I decided to screw it and be an atheist.

 

[picnic]

Christianity remains in the center of the public square because it purposefully put itself there and has a solid 1,000 years of deeply ingrained cultural weight to back up those feelings. It may still feel fresh to some, but that's only because of it's ability to adapt and evolve, which is the very thing that I think you are talking about. Let's not forget that were it not for a few decisions made by a mostly biased council that you wouldn't even talking about the divinity of Christ. I'll go out on a limb and say that none of the founding Christian fathers would recognize modern Christianity as a thing worth celebrating. The divide between their world and ours is light years wide and is filled with many of the ills that the Gospels and other books were directly speaking against. What is totally acceptable and passable today as Christianity would have harshly scolded by the very people modern Christians quote in scripture, I do believe. The very ills that are outlined in the NT as plaguing Judaism at the time have become almost the cornerstone of modern Christianity. And the only reason is ever survived the middle ages and the renaissance was because it adapted to the ever-changing sociopolitical climate, just like any staying religion has to do.

Yep, can't disagree with that.

 

[picnic]

It would not make any sense.
This is a very difficult and controversial subject when seen in it's true light.
What can be seen from even a casual study like you present is that Christianity has not only changed but has become completely severed from its roots.
The changes that have occurred have rendered it vain and useless.
If the historical Jesus is not God then the whole thing comes tumbling down.


Once one begins to see that the story of the prodigal son was replaced with the historical god-man Jesus, you can begin to see the enormity of the problem.
The scriptures were written so that mankind would not lose the knowledge of how to return to the kingdom of heaven from where we came.

Jesus could have been any man.
He was a prodigal son just like us.
He just happened to be the first to overcome and return to the Father.
He liberated us from the mystery religions and the need for a teacher by becoming the pattern for us all, just like the entire book of Hebrews proclaims.

Jesus was like you and i, our brother.
This is the reason that it is impossible to find the historical Jesus.
The scriptures, in the pattern of humility, did not ever portray Jesus as God.
His life had to diminish so that the pattern could emerge.
He is not God, he became one with God.
There is a big difference.

The historical Jesus had to die to himself just like we are told to do.
He said to call no one teacher.
The true prophet is within.
The Logos, the son of God is to be found through a search within not without.
He cannot be found outside of ourselves.

Christianity has indeed changed.
Mankind has been robbed of the understanding necessary to return home.
It has been replaced with the jesus-god.

That sounds as sensible as any other Christian theology I've heard. There are some good ideas in that post for sure... things that a person needs to learn for themselves the hard way and then the ideas would resonate as truth. Unfortunately, I haven't learned some of those ideas that you discuss, so I don't have a very good appreciation of them - even though I sense that I should.

 

[picnic]

You don't believe because of some physical evidence - I wonder what it is that you're looking for that would convince you. Yet you then come out with things that many would love to experience.
It is a change in the heart that is required. You stand outside the door and don't want to go in for some reason. Perhaps it is not your time yet.

Maybe so. IDK. The idea of a door suggests a boundary and some place I'm supposed to go. I'm not sure I can go anywhere else or be anything other me. My cat likes me the way I am.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Maybe so. IDK. The idea of a door suggests a boundary and some place I'm supposed to go. I'm not sure I can go anywhere else or be anything other me. My cat likes me the way I am.

It is true that we cannot be anything else other than what we are. You follow your own Self, and that is the higher part of you that you don't know. The question is, is it right you stay out, or that you go in. Only time will tell. But try is all I can say. Life does not end at death.

 

[allfoak]

That sounds as sensible as any other Christian theology I've heard. There are some good ideas in that post for sure... things that a person needs to learn for themselves the hard way and then the ideas would resonate as truth. Unfortunately, I haven't learned some of those ideas that you discuss, so I don't have a very good appreciation of them - even though I sense that I should.

These things do not come easily.
The prodigal son was completely deceived by the god of this world.
It took the worst of circumstances for him to even begin to see just a little bit and make the journey back home.
He had no idea the joy that awaited him till he got there.

The most important factor in beginning the journey home is knowing that we have an eternal soul...
8."So through many changes must you be made perfect, as it is written in the book of Job, 'I am a wanderer, changing place after place and house after house, until I come into the city and mansion which is eternal.'"
The Gospel of the Nazirene chap. 37

 

[allfoak]

I am an alchemist at heart.
From the perspective of an alchemist the scriptures look very different than they do to a Christian.

 

[outhouse]

If the historical Jesus and the historical Yahweh were mundane and carnal, then how can a personal experience of Jesus or God make sense?

It doesn't make sense to me no matter how anyone believes.

There is no such thing as a historical Yahweh.

Even I can claim some small experiences that seemed to indicate the existence of Jesus and God.

Personal perception means nothing towards credible evidence.

On the other side of the scale, many people claim to have personally experienced Jesus or God

All personal perception. Had they never knew the concept, they would hear nothing.

The human mind is very weak.

Was Jesus a revolutionary, a faith healer, a teacher, a doomsday prophet, ...?

A bit of each following middle of the road academics. As you notice different scholars attribute different amounts based on their educated personal perception of evidence.

The problem is all the mythology in theology surrounding the martyrdom after Passover and crucifixion by people far removed from any actual event that were writing from a different part of the world.

 

[sun rise]

I agree with the values that motivate your policy, but I hate to relegate reality to whatever furthers our self-improvement aims. I know it is hard to know what is real, so maybe your approach has some merit. IDK

It was not my intent to give you that impression. To me what is real is not what I think but rather the joy of a child. What is important to me is not whether or not I think Jesus is the Avatar come again, the Son of God, a Prophet or an ordinary man but whether or not I try to treat people with love and respect. Self-improvement comes in when I note my falling short of my ideal and working to overcome internal barriers.

 

[allfoak]

To me what is real is not what I think but rather the joy of a child.

It sounds to me like you have learned the secret to verifying the truth.
It is a secret because it is too bizarre and sounds too much like foolishness to most.

 

[Forever_Catholic]

There are lots of popular books available describing evidence that early Christians had diverse ideas about Christology and other things.

Scholars aren't certain who Jesus was or what Jesus taught.

Any popular books describing evidence that early Christians had diverse ideas about Christology do not correlate with the reality of early Christianity. The consistent truth becomes very obvious in a serious study of Church history, beginning with its founding by Jesus Christ and continuing through unbroken apostolic succession to the present.

There have always been heretics – a few here and there in early Christianity, and innumerable millions everywhere today, but no teaching has ever changed in the one and only Church that Christ established. The one he called “My Church” when he gave Simon a new name and said thou art Peter (Petros - rock), and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it (Matthew 16:18). He sent them to “teach all nations what I have commanded you” and gave them and their successors the ultimate authority and divine assistance to do it. He said “Whoever hears you hears me” (Luke 10:16), and that the Holy Spirit would always guide them into all truth (John 16:13).

The problem is that the unchanging truth taught by Jesus and his Church for over 2,000 years is not necessarily what has been taught by those who either left the Catholic Church or were never part of it to begin with. Diverse ideas about Christology, morphing understandings, churches that formulate their own theologies, and so-called scholars who don’t know who Jesus is, are all outside of the One True Faith.

 

[aoji]

Was Jesus a revolutionary, a faith healer, a teacher, a doomsday prophet, ...? /quote]

He was all that and more. He was called Rabbi by some Jews, he was a healer, a yogi, Enlightened, a magician, teacher and prophet, he was feared by the Romans as a revolutionary, which caused the Jews to fear that the Jewish nation would be destroyed by the Romans because Jesus called himself a king.

If the historical Jesus and the historical Yahweh were mundane and carnal, then how can a personal experience of Jesus or God make sense?

For Yahweh to be carnal he would have to have been an alien, as Zacharia Sitchin espouses in his 12th Planet books. In other esoteric books Yahweh and Jehovah were two different Gods.

 

[aoji]

I personally suspect that Jesus did not see himself as divine...

I disagree; he said he said things like "The Father and I are One," and "Know ye not that ye are Gods?"

 

[George-ananda]

There is another thread somewhat similar about the nature of Jesus, but I thought it might be worth asking this question more directly. There are lots of popular books available describing evidence that early Christians had diverse ideas about Christology and other things. In other words, Christianity seems to have evolved in fundamental ways over the first couple of centuries. Scholars aren't certain who Jesus was or what Jesus taught. Was Jesus a revolutionary, a faith healer, a teacher, a doomsday prophet, ...? Similar things can be said about Judaism. Neither religion seems to have appeared abruptly like we should expect from a divine revelation.

For the first 1900 years of Christianity, the level of education and exposure to information for the average person was very low and they just took the Bible stories as a given. Now that we all have access to education and the information/internet, we question everything and think for ourselves. We don't have videos and interviews, etc., from Jesus' time like we do for modern figures and events. We only have limited writings. So, yes, speculation can run rampant. I personally think we are starting to see the winding down of Christianity and the rising up of eastern/New Age (for lack of a perfect term) supported by figures in modern times.

On the other side of the scale, many people claim to have personally experienced Jesus or God. Even I can claim some small experiences that seemed to indicate the existence of Jesus and God.

If the historical Jesus and the historical Yahweh were mundane and carnal, then how can a personal experience of Jesus or God make sense?

Well, I think there is plenty of evidence that we live in a spiritual universe and spirit can come through no matter the name and form envisioned by people in their experiences.