Corollary to Transgender Issues: strategies to stop the violence

[crossfire]

This is a corollary thread to the Transgender Issues: Blurring the lines between the genders is not the problem.

Transgender issues: Why blurring the line between men and women is not the problem

I know that these types of threads can be challenging and sensitive - but I want to share my current perspective on trans people, especially trans females. I understand that some people may feel uncomfortable or threatened by men who express their gender identity in a way that does not conform...

www.religiousforums.com

This is asking a more pointed question: what strategies would be effective in stopping the violence against transgender persons?

 

[crossfire]

I'm especially interested in solutions conservative-leaning people might want to suggest!

 

[YmirGF]

I am basing my opinion on my 5-year friendship with Selena, a trans person who has now undergone bottom surgery. Selena was unable to find "real" work due to how she "presented", at the time. She presents as female now, but back when, she didn't really pass as female and got into a lot of dangerous situations because of the people who are out on the street at all hours of the night looking for sex. She would often not get paid because the "client" felt cheated. *sigh*

Weirdly, now that she has fully transitioned and presents as a female, she was able to get a good job at the largest energy producer in the province.

So, as said, prior to this ...

"Make it so transgender folks do not have to become sex workers might be a good start. Maybe put them on disability or something? Just an idea as most, but not all, of the actual violence is against sex workers."

This could be part of "intake" at the gender clinic, fill out disability paperwork, so financial security was taken care of. Seems like a significant "win" to me.

 

[Twilight Hue]

This is a corollary thread to the Transgender Issues: Blurring the lines between the genders is not the problem.

Transgender issues: Why blurring the line between men and women is not the problem

I know that these types of threads can be challenging and sensitive - but I want to share my current perspective on trans people, especially trans females. I understand that some people may feel uncomfortable or threatened by men who express their gender identity in a way that does not conform...

www.religiousforums.com

This is asking a more pointed question: what strategies would be effective in stopping the violence against transgender persons?

Stop forcing issues on people and look for concessions.

 

[Shaul]

One thing might be to jettison the misconception that transgender violence is a one-way syndrome with transgender people always being the victim. Transgender people are just as human as anyone. They are just as capable of being violent as anyone. To deny they are capable of violence actually dehumanizes transgender people. The Colorado Springs mass shooter was non-binary. The Aberdeen, Maryland shooter was transgender. The Nashville shooter was transgender. It is also true that transgender persons commit suicide vastly more often than others. Suicide is a form of violence. So those are cases of violence against transgender people with both the victim and perpetrator being transgender.

 

[fantome profane]

I am basing my opinion on my 5-year friendship with Selena, a trans person who has now undergone bottom surgery. Selena was unable to find "real" work due to how she "presented", at the time. She presents as female now, but back when, she didn't really pass as female and got into a lot of dangerous situations because of the people who are out on the street at all hours of the night looking for sex. She would often not get paid because the "client" felt cheated. *sigh*

Weirdly, now that she has fully transitioned and presents as a female, she was able to get a good job at the largest energy producer in the province.

So, as said, prior to this ...

"Make it so transgender folks do not have to become sex workers might be a good start. Maybe put them on disability or something? Just an idea as most, but not all, of the actual violence is against sex workers."

This could be part of "intake" at the gender clinic, fill out disability paperwork, so financial security was taken care of. Seems like a significant "win" to me.

Are you putting the onus on the victim to do adjust their behaviour so they are not violently attacked?

 

[YmirGF]

Are you putting the onus on the victim to do adjust their behaviour so they are not violently attacked?

I don't quite understand how you are meaning this. Can you rephrase or flesh this idea out?

 

[fantome profane]

I don't quite understand how you are meaning this. Can you rephrase or flesh this idea out?

First understand that this is a question, not a rhetorical accusation.

But it seems to me that you are suggesting that the problem can be dealt with if the transgender person were to simply adjust their behaviour to become "more acceptable".

You talked about your friend getting into dangerous situations because she "didn't pass", and how things improved when she did "pass". I am glad things got better for your friend. But is it your suggestion for dealing with violence against transgender people? Are you saying that they must work harder to "pass"?

Is the onus on the transgender person to confirm to one of the gender norms?



Can you suggest a strategy of dealing with violence that puts the onus on the people being violent to adjust their behaviour instead of the victim being the one to make accommodations?

 

[YmirGF]

First understand that this is a question, not a rhetorical accusation.

I was unsure, therefore felt it prudent to inquire.

But it seems to me that you are suggesting that the problem can be dealt with if the transgender person were to simply adjust their behaviour to become "more acceptable".

Actually, my point was that when she was clearly still in transition when she was a sex worker. Because she was "inbetween" it was not conducive to her finding more suitable employment. From the way Selena describes it, she didn't have any other ways of earning a living, as her attempt to find a regular job were fruitless. She assumed it was because of how she appeared.

By the time I met Selena, she was no longer a sex worker, and I was surprised when I learned she was transgender. She had made enough money off the sex work to apply to her expensive transition. After she was able to "present" as a female, she had no real problem landing a good job.

Was her experience finding work fair? No. But, businesses generally do not hire people who come with obvious issues.
Hence, my notion to allow folks to go on disability. That would allow them to continue with their transition while being financially solvent.

You talked about your friend getting into dangerous situations because she "didn't pass", and how things improved when she did "pass". I am glad things got better for your friend. But is it your suggestion for dealing with violence against transgender people? Are you saying that they must work harder to "pass"?

This is much harder to answer than I first thought. No, I'm not saying they have to work harder to "pass". What I am saying is that no matter how hard they try to "pass" at certain stages of transition, people will recognize this fact. Whereas at later stages of transition, people may not even be aware that the person is transgender.

Is the onus on the transgender person to confirm to one of the gender norms?

As far as I am aware, people suffering from gender dysphoria want to be recognized as the opposite of their birth sex. Conforming to a given gender binary seems to be baked into the cake for genuine transgender folks.

Can you suggest a strategy of dealing with violence that puts the onus on the people being violent to adjust their behaviour instead of the victim being the one to make accommodations?

What? Sadly, we cannot make people be responsible, compassionate or kind.

 

[Firenze]

This is a corollary thread to the Transgender Issues: Blurring the lines between the genders is not the problem.

Transgender issues: Why blurring the line between men and women is not the problem

I know that these types of threads can be challenging and sensitive - but I want to share my current perspective on trans people, especially trans females. I understand that some people may feel uncomfortable or threatened by men who express their gender identity in a way that does not conform...

www.religiousforums.com

This is asking a more pointed question: what strategies would be effective in stopping the violence against transgender persons?

We could follow the data and stop denying restroom access based on how people identify - since some 36% of trans girls report being assaulted in schools that force them into the boys room.

Why LGBT Advocates Say Bathroom 'Predators' Are Red Herring

"It’s so hard to fight this because it’s such nonsense."

time.com

 

[icehorse]

We could follow the data and stop denying restroom access based on how people identify - since some 36% of trans girls report being assaulted in schools that force them into the boys room.

Why LGBT Advocates Say Bathroom 'Predators' Are Red Herring

"It’s so hard to fight this because it’s such nonsense."

time.com

When it comes to safe spaces for women and for trans people, there are more than two solutions. I agree that trans people being attacked is a real problem. So let's find ways to address that problem that do not put women at increased risk. Let's stop pretending it's an either / or situation.

 

[Firenze]

When it comes to safe spaces for women and for trans people, there are more than two solutions. I agree that trans people being attacked is a real problem. So let's find ways to address that problem that do not put women at increased risk. Let's stop pretending it's an either / or situation.

Let’s also stop pretending that women and men in restrooms puts women at increased risk. Europeans have had unisex restrooms for decades now. Why don’t they have sexual assault issues there? The answer gets back to the beginning of this thread. It’s a wholly American problem because of our obsession with sex and our religiously based marginalization of women.

 

[Soandso]

When it comes to safe spaces for women and for trans people, there are more than two solutions. I agree that trans people being attacked is a real problem. So let's find ways to address that problem that do not put women at increased risk. Let's stop pretending it's an either / or situation.

Gonna have to disagree with you, there. I haven't seen any evidence that the tiny percentage of trans women out there pose much of a threat to, well, anyone really

 

[icehorse]

Gonna have to disagree with you, there. I haven't seen any evidence that the tiny percentage of trans women out there pose much of a threat to, well, anyone really

Is this your first foray into the spate of recent trans-related threads on this forum?

 

[Soandso]

Is this your first foray into the spate of recent trans-related threads on this forum?

I've been lurking and reading what people have been saying, and honestly the conversations I've been seeing take place have been very repetitive. I'm kind of just waiting to see if I can glean something new or useful from what people say, but it seems familiar to the other conversations that have been going on for the past few months

That said, my opinion is what it is. I don't believe there's a good reason to assume that trans people will be any more danger to folks in restrooms than anyone else without employing slippery slope fallacies unless someone can introduce some new, substantial evidence or thoughtful dialogue. Until then, meh

 

[crossfire]

I am basing my opinion on my 5-year friendship with Selena, a trans person who has now undergone bottom surgery. Selena was unable to find "real" work due to how she "presented", at the time. She presents as female now, but back when, she didn't really pass as female and got into a lot of dangerous situations because of the people who are out on the street at all hours of the night looking for sex. She would often not get paid because the "client" felt cheated. *sigh*

Weirdly, now that she has fully transitioned and presents as a female, she was able to get a good job at the largest energy producer in the province.

So, as said, prior to this ...

"Make it so transgender folks do not have to become sex workers might be a good start. Maybe put them on disability or something? Just an idea as most, but not all, of the actual violence is against sex workers."

This could be part of "intake" at the gender clinic, fill out disability paperwork, so financial security was taken care of. Seems like a significant "win" to me.

Would you suspect that the violence experienced by gender-nonconforming sex workers is a form of gender policing?

 

[icehorse]

I've been lurking and reading what people have been saying, and honestly the conversations I've been seeing take place have been very repetitive. I'm kind of just waiting to see if I can glean something new or useful from what people say, but it seems familiar to the other conversations that have been going on for the past few months

That said, my opinion is what it is. I don't believe there's a good reason to assume that trans people will be any more danger to folks in restrooms than anyone else without employing slippery slope fallacies unless someone can introduce some new, substantial evidence or thoughtful dialogue. Until then, meh

Fair enough. So the point I've been making is that it's not about trans people being more dangerous.

It's about the problem of changing the public perception so that a person who looks like a man can enter women's safe spaces without anyone being concerned. It's about making it easier for bad men to do bad things to women.

 

[crossfire]

Stop forcing issues on people and look for concessions.

So is policing the issue here?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Gonna have to disagree with you, there. I haven't seen any evidence that the tiny percentage of trans women out there pose much of a threat to, well, anyone really

A good point. So, we just need to understand how many cis-women are being molested by trans-women in public washrooms, and we could maybe start discussing the issue sensibly. Now, I admit, I am aware of no studies that have looked into this issue. But I must also say, if a MtoF transexual were to rape a woman in a public washroom, that would very like be newsworthy, and widely reported. So we should be able to find some examples, if it's really a problem, shouldn't we?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I was unsure, therefore felt it prudent to inquire.

Actually, my point was that when she was clearly still in transition when she was a sex worker. Because she was "inbetween" it was not conducive to her finding more suitable employment. From the way Selena describes it, she didn't have any other ways of earning a living, as her attempt to find a regular job were fruitless. She assumed it was because of how she appeared.

By the time I met Selena, she was no longer a sex worker, and I was surprised when I learned she was transgender. She had made enough money off the sex work to apply to her expensive transition. After she was able to "present" as a female, she had no real problem landing a good job.

Was her experience finding work fair? No. But, businesses generally do not hire people who come with obvious issues.
Hence, my notion to allow folks to go on disability. That would allow them to continue with their transition while being financially solvent.

I do think accessibility for trans healthcare is a a big factor, but I think that access to healthcare in general for all humans is a big factor here right now.
Rather than putting trans people on disability, I wish we could start pursuing real talks in this country about implementing a NHS-style system.