Corollary to Transgender Issues: strategies to stop the violence

[fantome profane]

It's about the problem of changing the public perception so that a person who looks like a man can enter women's safe spaces without anyone being concerned. It's about making it easier for bad men to do bad things to women.

And as has been pointed out to you time and time again, nothing really has changed. There have been transgender people forever, and they have always managed to find a place to pee.

The only thing that has changed is fear mongering politicians.

 

[fantome profane]

It's about the problem of changing the public perception so that a person who looks like a man can enter women's safe spaces without anyone being concerned. It's about making it easier for bad men to do bad things to women.

And as has been pointed out to you time and time again, nothing really has changed. There have been transgender people forever, and they have always managed to find a place to pee.

The only thing that has changed is fear mongering politicians exploiting the bigotry of their constituents.

 

[Soandso]

Fair enough. So the point I've been making is that it's not about trans people being more dangerous.

It's about the problem of changing the public perception so that a person who looks like a man can enter women's safe spaces without anyone being concerned. It's about making it easier for bad men to do bad things to women.

Hmmm... Is this something that actually happens? Maybe you could pull up some real world examples of men dressed as men saying they are women so they can attack women in women's restrooms?

Also, even if you did see someone who looked masculine go into a woman's restroom, would you be the one to stop them? What if this is a biological woman who happens to have very masculine features? Maybe she suffers with PCOS and also has facial hair? Sometimes it's just hard to tell with some people, honestly. Some women look very masculine, and some men look very feminine. It's not their fault, it's just the biological cards they were dealt in life

 

[Firenze]

A good point. So, we just need to understand how many cis-women are being molested by trans-women in public washrooms, and we could maybe start discussing the issue sensibly. Now, I admit, I am aware of no studies that have looked into this issue. But I must also say, if a MtoF transexual were to rape a woman in a public washroom, that would very like be newsworthy, and widely reported. So we should be able to find some examples, if it's really a problem, shouldn't we?

According to my earlier post, law enforcement has stated that they have seen no increase in sexual assault in areas where trans women can access womens restrooms.

 

[YmirGF]

I do think accessibility for trans healthcare is a a big factor, but I think that access to healthcare in general for all humans is a big factor here right now.
Rather than putting trans people on disability, I wish we could start pursuing real talks in this country about implementing a NHS-style system.

Baby steps, baby steps...

Would you suspect that the violence experienced by gender-nonconforming sex workers is a form of gender policing?

Are you implying the "johns" are "policing" gender-conformity on sex-workers who they discover are transgender?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Baby steps, baby steps...

Medicare for all? Seems like a baby step in that it's utilizing an existing infrastructure but would have more far reaching benefits.

Are you implying the "johns" are "policing" gender-conformity on sex-workers who they discover are transgender?

Ever hear of the panic defense?

 

[Viker]

According to my earlier post, law enforcement has stated that they have seen no increase in sexual assault in areas where trans women can access womens restrooms.

True that. People need to stop making up scenarios that don't exist and claiming they will exist if trans-women are allowed into women's restrooms.

I've said this before. There is more of a risk of trans-women being assaulted in men's restrooms than the other. But enemies of trans-women don't care.

Something that already exists and is prevalent: Transgender teens with restricted bathroom access at higher risk of sexual assault

 

[YmirGF]

Ever hear of the panic defense?

I've heard of it, but never focused on it much.

 

[icehorse]

And as has been pointed out to you time and time again, nothing really has changed. There have been transgender people forever, and they have always managed to find a place to pee.

The only thing that has changed is fear mongering politicians.

just for grins, can you steelman my position?

 

[fantome profane]

just for grins, can you steelman my position?

I don't think I can. If I could, I wouldn't. I find you position ignorant and morally repugnant. Don't ask me to defend it.

 

[icehorse]

Hmmm... Is this something that actually happens? Maybe you could pull up some real world examples of men dressed as men saying they are women so they can attack women in women's restrooms?

Also, even if you did see someone who looked masculine go into a woman's restroom, would you be the one to stop them? What if this is a biological woman who happens to have very masculine features? Maybe she suffers with PCOS and also has facial hair? Sometimes it's just hard to tell with some people, honestly. Some women look very masculine, and some men look very feminine. It's not their fault, it's just the biological cards they were dealt in life

first do a search on genderf##k

Second, the system we've had for decades is not perfect. but this makes it worse.

 

[icehorse]

I don't think I can. If I could, I wouldn't. I find you position ignorant and morally repugnant. Don't ask me to defend it.

well you've been strawmanning it - it's easier to be offended when you do that

 

[fantome profane]

well you've been strawmanning it - it's easier to be offended when you do that

You can defend your own position.


Well actually, no, you obviously can't.

 

[Soandso]

first do a search on genderf##k

Second, the system we've had for decades is not perfect. but this makes it worse.

Yes, you showed me the link to them before. Gender f##k is a tiny counter culture movement. They aren't really changing or influencing anything, from what I can see - they're too small and too niche. Do you have any evidence that gender f##k is actually making real, tangible changes in the real world? Any bills that were passed or political movements that actually made real changes because of them?

As for your second point, according to what? How does allowing trans people to use the restrooms that corresponds to the gender that they've transitioned to change anything in a meaningful way?

 

[icehorse]

You can defend your own position.


Well actually, no, you obviously can't.

President Obama had a policy that I think is worth considering. He said that he prefers to understand a person's position before he disagrees with it. You seem to feel pretty strongly against my position, but you can't state it? hmmm...

 

[icehorse]

Yes, you showed me the link to them before. Gender f##k is a tiny counter culture movement. They aren't really changing or influencing anything, from what I can see - they're too small and niche. Do you have any evidence that gender f##k is actually making real, tangible changes?

As for your second point, according to what? How does allowing trans people to use the restrooms that corresponds to the gender that they've transitioned to change anything in a meaningful way?

I did? I thought this was your first foray into these trans threads, my bad I guess.

Again, it's NOT about trans people. It's about allowing people who look like men - trans or not - into women's safe spaces, rest rooms, locker rooms, safe houses, prisons, shelters, and so on. This damages women's rights to safety and privacy. I have spoken to several dozen women concerning this issue. The most concerning to these women - who haven't had to use shelters - is the idea of having men share their locker rooms. Do the feelings of these women, and the tens of millions like them, not count?

 

[Soandso]

I did? I thought this was your first foray into these trans threads, my bad I guess.

Again, it's NOT about trans people. It's about allowing people who look like men - trans or not - into women's safe spaces, rest rooms, locker rooms, safe houses, prisons, shelters, and so on. This damages women's rights to safety and privacy. I have spoken to several dozen women concerning this issue. The most concerning to these women - who haven't had to use shelters - is the idea of having men share their locker rooms. Do the feelings of these women, and the tens of millions like them, not count?

Lots of things make lots of people uncomfortable. It used to be illegal for black people to kiss in public because it made white people feel uncomfortable. Gay people used to not be allowed to serve in the military because it made straight people feel uncomfortable. I could keep going on, but I think you get my point

At my place of work, the locker room is unisex. It's really not that big of a deal... If people need to change or undress for some reason, they do so in the restrooms. There are some trans guys I work with who also change in the men's room. I don't see the big deal, honestly. Anyone who changes does it in the stalls so folks have some privacy anyways

As for your point about trans women who actively try to look like men going into women's restrooms... Who outside of gender f##k or Tumblr from 2016 with the infinite amount of genders is advocating for this? It feels like you are worried about something that just doesn't exist in any real sense, imo

I've had this discussion with you like a couple months before, though. I just don't find it convincing

 

[icehorse]

As for your point about trans women who actively try to look like men going into women's restrooms... Who outside of gender f##k or Tumblr from 2016 with the infinite amount of genders is advocating for this? It feels like you are worried about something that just doesn't exist in any real sense, imo

You're still not getting my point. Let me try again. The issue is making it NORMAL for people who look like men - and mostly that means non-trans men! - to go into women's safe spaces. Sadly, men assault women a lot. This just makes it easier for MEN to do so.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You're still not getting my point. Let me try again. The issue is making it NORMAL for people who look like men - and mostly that means non-trans men! - to go into women's safe spaces. Sadly, men assault women a lot. This just makes it easier for MEN to do so.

That's still false and as we have told you that ends up making victims out of cis women who some truly nasty people decide doesn't look feminine enough.

 

[Viker]

I don't know. I have had to rethink something. Maybe sometimes we have to ignore something and hope it goes away. Maybe come back to address it eventually, later on.