• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Cosmological argument that is sound.

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Everything that can be imagined to come to exist, is contingent. And what is possibly contingent, can be imagined to come to exist.

That is to say anything contingent is not eternal. And anything not eternal, is contingent.

The question is an infinite chain of contingent events itself contingent. While sometimes apply parts to the whole is a fallacy, I believe, in this case, if none of the chain is non-contingent, it's deduction, that makes us deduce it's still contingent.

What is eternal and non-contingent, has to be fully, none of it opposite to this, but eternal. An eternal thing exist that brought the contingent world to be is very rational to conclude. Nothing but an eternal being can do this.

It needs will and power to bring existence into being. This cannot be a material thing.

An eternal Creator would need a reason to create us. This shows it has emotional intelligence.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Everything that can be imagined to come to exist, is contingent. And what is possibly contingent, can be imagined to come to exist.

That is to say anything contingent is not eternal. And anything not eternal, is contingent.

The question is an infinite chain of contingent events itself contingent. While sometimes apply parts to the whole is a fallacy, I believe, in this case, if none of the chain is non-contingent, it's deduction, that makes us deduce it's still contingent.

What is eternal and non-contingent, has to be fully, none of it opposite to this, but eternal. An eternal thing exist that brought the contingent world to be is very rational to conclude. Nothing but an eternal being can do this.

It needs will and power to bring existence into being. This cannot be a material thing.

An eternal Creator would need a reason to create us. This shows it has emotional intelligence.
I claim nothing is contingent. Beat that.

ciao

- viole
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
You can claim it, but things come to existence from other events, and decay out of existence, they are contingent.
Nope, those other events are necessary. And the laws that lead us from them is also necessary. Ergo, the current state of affair is necessary.

and you are using one deprecated ontology of time. In reality, nothing decays out of existence. There is not such a thing as out of existence.


Ciao

- viole
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Everything that can be imagined to come to exist, is contingent. And what is possibly contingent, can be imagined to come to exist.

That is to say anything contingent is not eternal. And anything not eternal, is contingent.

The question is an infinite chain of contingent events itself contingent. While sometimes apply parts to the whole is a fallacy, I believe, in this case, if none of the chain is non-contingent, it's deduction, that makes us deduce it's still contingent.

What is eternal and non-contingent, has to be fully, none of it opposite to this, but eternal. An eternal thing exist that brought the contingent world to be is very rational to conclude. Nothing but an eternal being can do this.

It needs will and power to bring existence into being. This cannot be a material thing.

An eternal Creator would need a reason to create us. This shows it has emotional intelligence.


There are several leaps of faith there. It is known how the world came to be, entirely natural accretion. Thought it is not known how the universe came to be.

Eternal is a guess state, faith, nothing other than imagination. Of course, if there were evidence then there would be no need for faith.

Something of a quandary don't you think?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Everything that can be imagined to come to exist, is contingent. And what is possibly contingent, can be imagined to come to exist. That is to say anything contingent is not eternal. And anything not eternal, is contingent. The question is an infinite chain of contingent events itself contingent. While sometimes apply parts to the whole is a fallacy, I believe, in this case, if none of the chain is non-contingent, it's deduction, that makes us deduce it's still contingent. What is eternal and non-contingent, has to be fully, none of it opposite to this, but eternal. An eternal thing exist that brought the contingent world to be is very rational to conclude. Nothing but an eternal being can do this. It needs will and power to bring existence into being. This cannot be a material thing. An eternal Creator would need a reason to create us. This shows it has emotional intelligence.

This argument is no more sound than any other cosmological argument that ends, "therefore, God." They all begin with a premise that the universe has a beginning and therefore needs a cause, neither of which is established. We merely know that the universe began expanding from a primordial seed billions of years ago, but not that that seed wasn't eternal, nor that it had a cause.

These cosmological arguments then go on to say that that cause must have been a deity - a sentient, purposive agent. There is no argument or evidence against an unconscious source such as a multiverse in these arguments. This logical possibility is simply ignored, a logical fallacy.

Either an unproven premise or fallacious argumentation make a conclusion supported by them unsound. Here we have both.
 

dfnj

Well-Known Member
Everything that can be imagined to come to exist, is contingent. And what is possibly contingent, can be imagined to come to exist.

That is to say anything contingent is not eternal. And anything not eternal, is contingent.

The question is an infinite chain of contingent events itself contingent. While sometimes apply parts to the whole is a fallacy, I believe, in this case, if none of the chain is non-contingent, it's deduction, that makes us deduce it's still contingent.

What is eternal and non-contingent, has to be fully, none of it opposite to this, but eternal. An eternal thing exist that brought the contingent world to be is very rational to conclude. Nothing but an eternal being can do this.

It needs will and power to bring existence into being. This cannot be a material thing.

An eternal Creator would need a reason to create us. This shows it has emotional intelligence.

I'm not sure what you are trying to argue with your argument. God is not something to be proven but is an accepted premise in most belief systems which include God as a component. It's only people who hold the premise God does not exist which seem to pretend such arguments actually matter and predictably and inevitably conclude every such argument fails to succeed.

I see God as a word first and foremost. Words have nature, character, and meaning. The word God is a representation of our relationship to existence and our experience of being. There are many types of words. There are words like apple which represent direct experiences. And there are words like love which have a transcendent aspect to their meaning. Nobody denies the existence of apples. Most people struggle with the idea of love their whole lives. People who demand to experience God the way they would experience apples often do not experience love either.

Regardless of the words we use and how we use them everyone has a belief system. Every belief system brings with it a set of prejudices and convictions. I have found most belief systems are built on a set of premises accepted as being true without any proof. Although many mule headed people have argued with me about the nature of belief systems. The mule heads will claim their own belief system is NOT built on assumptions but has absolute self-evident truths based on common sense and natural evidence.

In my way of thinking, your sentence, "an eternal Creator would need a reason to create us" has a set of presuppositions. There's nothing wrong with your presuppositions. It's just that I choose to have a different set of presuppositions about our Creator. For me, an eternal Creator exists, but our universe was not created out of some need or some desire. With my set of presuppositions, God's essence of being is absolute perfection, wholeness, and completeness. God needs nothing, God desires nothing, and God transcends everything and is beyond our comprehension. The only reason God exists is God is a word that is a representation of all of existence and everything that could possibly ever exist. With my way of thinking, God did not create the universe out of desire or some unfulfilled need, but rather our universe was created or came into being from an overflowing abundance of God's greatness.

The same is true with your sentence, "this shows it has emotional intelligence" is for me, a type of anthropomorphic projection. God is not just intelligent but God is the most intelligence that can ever exist or ever be. God does not have emotions because emotions would imply God is lacking something. In my way of thinking, God's only experience of himself, or herself, would be absolute fulfillment to the point where time ceases to exist and conscious thought gives way to an absolute contentment of being. God is a word that only exists so it can be a representation of immanence and transcendence intertwined in a "unity of opposites."

Our minds need a place where mystery can exist. God is that place. You can deny the existence of the mystery of why anything exists at all as opposed to nothingness, but you would then be denying one of the most interesting qualities about how we are universe's way of experiencing itself. It's a real struggle for us with all our limitations to just have a brief glimpse or a minute experience of the absolute perfection that is God. Being and nothingness. Yawn or celebration? I think each of us chooses how we experience our universe.

Of course our mule headed friends would think what I am saying is completely insane because they do not share my set of presuppositions as being true. It's the nature of human language to think your own way of thinking is correct and people who think differently are insane. It's just the chaotic nature of way belief systems work.

Time to go back into my cave.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
An eternal thing exist that brought the contingent world to be is very rational to conclude. Nothing but an eternal being can do this.

1. how did you suddenly jump from "eternal thing" to "eternal being"?

2. how did you determine that "nothing else" can do this? Seems like just an empty declaration.

It needs will and power to bring existence into being

Why must it have "will"?


This cannot be a material thing.

Give an example an "immaterial thing" that can do stuff and cause material effects


An eternal Creator would need a reason to create us

Why? Because you say so?


You call this an "argument"?
I call it a bunch of bare assertions that don't follow from the very shady and vague premises, which by themselves aren't supported either and most of which are just more bare declarations on your behalf.
 
Top