Could consciousness be an illusion?

[Runewolf1973]

I don't see consciousness or awareness as being some mysterious thing that exists apart or independently of matter. The way I see it, consciousness or awareness is simply a highly evolved form of chemical interaction...the ability for things to interact. All matter interacts on a fundamental level...the fundamental forces. As things evolve or change form over time those chemical interactions may become more and more complex eventually leading to a higher state of interaction we call consciousness or self awareness. Therefore, that consciousness or awareness as we call it that humans have does not really exist in all things, but all things have to some degree an ability to interact or respond to external forces. All things are interactive, some things are just more interactive than others. Perhaps consciousness or even self awareness is somewhat of an illusion, there are only interactions which exist at varying levels.
This is also how I view what we call life. The only thing that makes one thing seem more lifelike, lively, or alive than another thing is the complexity of it's interactions and its ability to sustain those interactions. The more complex an organism is, the more it interacts with it's surroundings.
So how I see it, there is really no such thing as life or consciousness as some separately existing thing apart from matter, but there are those forms of matter which appear more lifelike, animate, or conscious than others due to their very complex nature.

 

[technomage]

Could be. If it is an illusion, it's entertaining.

 

[Contemplative Cat]

Consciousness is inherent in nature, sure.
But it is ultimately it is a relative term describing a subtle unchangeing aspect of nature.
In absoluteness all names and concepts are gone in a full-voidness.

 

[Leftimies]

Illusion requires consciousness to exist in the first place: if there is no consciousness to perceive, there would be no illusion (false perception) taking place or manifesting.

Consciousness is made up of various types of bodily perceptions and appropriate neural data, and it probably exists within quantum realm.

Illusion is a bodily or mental perception which does not match reality as experienced. In other words, consciousness pre-dates illusion and is the prerequisite of the latter.


Consciousness is nothing but reality experiencing itself, as manifested in higher living organisms. Consciousness is reckoning, consciousness is perception, consciousness is phenomena, and it can be deluded as well, and illusion in that sense. But no, one does not equate the other.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Consciousness is inherent in nature, sure.
But it is ultimately it is a relative term describing a subtle unchangeing aspect of nature.
In absoluteness all names and concepts are gone in a full-voidness.

I believe there is no aspect of nature that is truly unchanging. The universe to me is animated and constantly changing...no such thing as static, only that which is dynamic.

 

[technomage]

Student: "How do I know I exist?"

Teacher: "Who shall I say is asking?"

 

[Runewolf1973]

Illusion requires consciousness to exist in the first place: if there is no consciousness to perceive, there would be no illusion (false perception) taking place or manifesting.

Consciousness is made up of various types of bodily perceptions and appropriate neural data, and it probably exists within quantum realm.

Illusion is a bodily or mental perception which does not match reality as experienced. In other words, consciousness pre-dates illusion and is the prerequisite of the latter.


Consciousness is nothing but reality experiencing itself, as manifested in higher living organisms. Consciousness is reckoning, consciousness is perception, consciousness is phenomena, and it can be deluded as well, and illusion in that sense. But no, one does not equate the other.

Agreed...and it is ultimately nothing more than the interactions of matter manifesting in varying complexity.

 

[Contemplative Cat]

Well nature itself never changes. Thus its emergent qualities never change

Imagine nature nature as a cosmic water. The wettness pervades all water, the wettness doesn't change no matter how the water moves or splashes.

In the state of no-mind(&thus no perception) it is the wettness that witnesses the absence of perception(which reveals that cosmic water)

Btw I like you, you are like a prince ready to be crowned. It's awsome.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Student: "How do I know I exist?"

Teacher: "Who shall I say is asking?"

Forget about consciousness and forget about the "I"...what do the chemical interactions in your brain tell you?

 

[Contemplative Cat]

Well that's the idea.
but when all is gone, there is no you just reality.
Since the witness can exist when all illusions are gone, the witness must be real.
Since the only reality is "energy". The witness IS the energy.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Well nature itself never changes. Thus its emergent qualities never change

Imagine nature nature as a cosmic water. The wettness pervades all water, the wettness doesn't change no matter how the water moves or splashes.

In the state of no-mind(&thus no perception) it is the wettness that witnesses the absence of perception(which reveals that cosmic water)

Btw I like you, you are like a prince ready to be crowned. It's awsome.

Well, thank you. I like you too.

I understand what you are saying though when we observe nature, evolution, physics, biology, we see that all things in nature change. Maybe it's the animist in me, but to me all things are animated, there is no such thing as "inanimate", unchanging, or static.


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[Runewolf1973]

Well that's the idea.
but when all is gone, there is no you just reality.
Since the witness can exist when all illusions are gone, the witness must be real.
Since the only reality is "energy". The witness IS the energy.

I feel we are talking about the same thing, I just personally don't like using the term "consciousness" to describe that fundamental, underlying reality.

 

[Contemplative Cat]

Well all the energy is animate,
but the essence of energy(the energy)
is unchangeing while never inanimate.
Consciousness will be were ever energy is, and vice versa.
Because really its the same thing. You can never separate wet from water.
Alternativly philosophers who consider the mind as consciousness confuse the ability to thnk with the witness of thought.

I have a feeling you have studied some
sankaya philosophy (the root of yogic philosophy)
Which described consciousness as all pervading but seprate.
this is just a practical practice. Because no real separation exists.

Really look at some water, feel its wettness.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Well all the energy is animate,
but the essence of energy(the energy)
is unchangeing while never inanimate.
Consciousness will be were ever energy is, and vice versa.
Because really its the same thing. You can never separate wet from water.
Alternativly philosophers who consider the mind as consciousness confuse the ability to thnk with the witness of thought.

I have a feeling you have studied some
sankaya philosophy (the root of yogic philosophy)
Which described consciousness as all pervading but seprate.
this is just a practical practice. Because no real separation exists.

Really look at some water, feel its wettness.

I agree, it is all the same thing (that is unchanging), yet continuously manifesting in different forms (continuously changing).

That which is both unchanging, yet never stops changing.

Actually, I haven't studied any traditions or philosophies. I know quite literally next to nothing about Hinduism or Buddhism. I observe nature. That is my teacher.

 

[Contemplative Cat]

Consciousness is given multiple definitions,
witness would be clearer .
The deep sleep state is universal, but in minds perceptions arise in that all encompassing blackness(yet also whiteness)
Just the irriducible beingness, that a dead man or a rock has.
Perceptions seem to pop up in this being that people call consciousness.

But if people define consciousness as a way to cognize a perspective then it would be the brain.

 

[Contemplative Cat]

Sankaya is the yoga that grants freedom from pain. It is a means of forgetting the body-self and loving the self in different bodies.

Essentially sankaya states spirit and matter are two separate eternal substances. Attachments & desires cause the all pervadeing spirit to
identify with a body, which when thwarted causes anger resistance. And self absorbtion to occur. Fogetting attachments the spirit detaches from the matter.
And then can percieve reality unfiltered by the sense organs

The philosophy has lots of holes, but the actual practice works. When mixed with advaita it became the shiva-shakti philosophy used by tantrik hindus

 

[nazz]

I love this. X does not fit into my belief system therefore it does not exist.

Kind of like evolution for creationists

 

[Runewolf1973]

I love this. X does not fit into my belief system therefore it does not exist.

Kind of like evolution for creationists

It is simply another way of understanding nature. If it is a part of nature, then it must fill some role and it must fit in somewhere whether one believes it or not. God (from the literal creationist, Abrahamic perspective) is not a part of nature, therefore I have no reason to believe that god exists. I believe in that which is naturally existing, not "supernatural".


---

 

[MD]

To think that matter can give rise to qualia and intention is to basically claim it has magical properties.

 

[Ouroboros]

Student: "How do I know I exist?"

Teacher: "Who shall I say is asking?"

Some thoughts from me. You're story got me thinking.

Even if consciousness, awareness, mind, soul, etc are illusions, it doesn't mean those things do not exist. That it's an illusion only means that it's not the way we think it is.

An illusion is a thing, but a thing that we misinterpret to be something else, like a mirage in the desert. Mirages are created by reflections, heat, moisture exchange, and whatever, but even if they look like something they're not, they're a reflection of something that is. Same with the mind.