Could consciousness be an illusion?

[technomage]

To think that matter can give rise to qualia and intention is to basically claim it has magical properties.

If consciousness is illusion, then both qualia and intention are illusions.

(I neither support nor deny the assertion that consciousness is an illusion--I merely point out the logical ramifications.)

 

[technomage]

Some thoughts from me. You're story got me thinking.

Even if consciousness, awareness, mind, soul, etc are illusions, it doesn't mean those things do not exist. That it's an illusion only means that it's not the way we think it is.

An illusion is a thing, but a thing that we misinterpret to be something else, like a mirage in the desert. Mirages are created by reflections, heat, moisture exchange, and whatever, but even if they look like something they're not, they're a reflection of something that is. Same with the mind.

I look at it even more simplisticly. If consciousness is an illusion, it is convincing (to most), and adaptive. If consciousness is NOT an illusion, it is a useful tool.

Either way. I'm going to enjoy the ride.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Some thoughts from me. You're story got me thinking.

Even if consciousness, awareness, mind, soul, etc are illusions, it doesn't mean those things do not exist. That it's an illusion only means that it's not the way we think it is.

An illusion is a thing, but a thing that we misinterpret to be something else, like a mirage in the desert. Mirages are created by reflections, heat, moisture exchange, and whatever, but even if they look like something they're not, they're a reflection of something that is. Same with the mind.

Good post. I agree.

 

[Runewolf1973]

To think that matter can give rise to qualia and intention is to basically claim it has magical properties.

Matter is not magical, but those fundamental forces do give rise to some rather interesting and unique forms or properties...and some rather unique interactions.

 

[Ouroboros]

Maybe I've told this story before, but a few years back I saw a flock of small birds in a fight with a predator bird. The flock flew back and forth as a unity and then split up to lure the big bird away and then reunite with the other group, then split again, over and over again. It's was very interesting to see that the herd or swarm behavior gave the impression of a united thing, the flock/herd, having "one mind" but essentially being a couple of hundred individuals. This is how the mind works too. The swarm behavior of neurons.

 

[MD]

Matter is not magical, but those fundamental forces do give rise to some rather interesting and unique forms or properties...and some rather unique interactions.

Basically magic. The conscious perception of reality is completely nove and unique and nothing like the physical substrates which gives rise to that perception.

 

[Revoltingest]

If one's consciousness is a convincing illusion, then it wouldn't be an illusion at all.

 

[technomage]

If one's consciousness is a convincing illusion, then it wouldn't be an illusion at all.

Not necessarily. Ever played with a program like "Eliza"? Sufficiently advanced, such software could give you a very convincing illusion that you're speaking to a real person ... but you'd still be talking to software.

 

[Sha'irullah]

You asked the wrong question. You meant to say that if reality is an illusion and product of counsciesness. If you are perceiving an illusion you need a means of perception, which is consciousness.

I myself am an idealist and conclude that all experiences are subjective along with reality. This is a major issue where religion comes into play. All metaphysics are true and all realities are true. Nothing can be assured it's own existence which is why Solipsism is deemed an irrefutable argument.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Basically magic. The conscious perception of reality is completely nove and unique and nothing like the physical substrates which gives rise to that perception.

The only "real" magic that I know of is based on illusion and trickery of the mind, so in that sense you are right. I don't believe that what we call consciousness is derived supernaturally. It is perhaps much like a property of sorts derived from natural forces or interactions.

 

[Sha'irullah]

The only "real" magic that I know of is based on illusion and trickery of the mind, so in that sense you are right. I don't believe that what we call consciousness is derived supernaturally. It is perhaps much like a property of sorts derived from natural forces or interactions.

Funny how you say that. I conclude the exact opposite and say that the supernatural is experienced by consciousness although it undoubtedly exist.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Funny how you say that. I conclude the exact opposite and say that the supernatural is experienced by consciousness although it undoubtedly exist.

The "supernatural" to me is just that...not naturally existing and therefore does not exist.

 

[Ouroboros]

Not necessarily. Ever played with a program like "Eliza"? Sufficiently advanced, such software could give you a very convincing illusion that you're speaking to a real person ... but you'd still be talking to software.

That reminds me, I wrote my own Eliza years ago for fun in an old 8-bits BASIC based computer. LOL!

 

[Runewolf1973]

Not necessarily. Ever played with a program like "Eliza"? Sufficiently advanced, such software could give you a very convincing illusion that you're speaking to a real person ... but you'd still be talking to software.

I like this example. It says a lot.

 

[Sha'irullah]

The "supernatural" to me is just that...not naturally existing and therefore does not exist.

But you know something had to predate natural existence right? Even something like the Big Bang can be viewed as supernatural occurrence, Richard Dawkins had to even address this. Also you said the supernatural does not exist which I can agree. God is an infinite which is a paradox because an infinite cannot find a slot in time nor exist if it exist outside of existence.

This is why I am an idealist as it solves this metaphysical issue. God is metaphysical and that is best solved through ontology and phenomenology. I just happened to use an idealistic system for this

 

[Runewolf1973]

But you know something had to predate natural existence right? Even something like the Big Bang can be viewed as supernatural occurrence, Richard Dawkins had to even address this. Also you said the supernatural does not exist which I can agree. God is an infinite which is a paradox because an infinite cannot find a slot in time nor exist if it exist outside of existence.

This is why I am an idealist as it solves this metaphysical issue. God is metaphysical and that is best solved through ontology and phenomenology. I just happened to use an idealistic system for this

I agree there was always something, but that by no means necessitates something supernatural. I simply do not view the Big Bang as a supernatural occurrence. Please refer to this thread...
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...onism/159928-no-need-god-because-we-have.html

 

[CynthiaCypher]

I think my Sims have the illusion of consciousness too, I don't know how to break it to them that I am really running the whole show.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/philosophy/156978-philosophy-mind.html

 

[Contemplative Cat]

If anything is called supernatural then it is contained in nature, its more like"nature I find extraordinary"

 

[Sha'irullah]

I agree there was always something, but that by no means necessitates something supernatural. I simply do not view the Big Bang as a supernatural occurrence. Please refer to this thread...
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...onism/159928-no-need-god-because-we-have.html

What is perfection? Before you make a claim you must root out semantical issues such as etymologies of primary key words which could self-refute your statements.

How is the universe imperfect? What makes some perfect? I can easily tell you that nothing is deemed perfect in the universe and this calls for a perfect god