Could consciousness be an illusion?

[nazz]

It is often made out to be something mysterious, but is is not.

Are you serious? Even if you take a purely physicalist view you don't find the idea of stimulating a lump of flesh with electricity producing all the rich internal experience of consciousness to be just slightly mysterious? Are you even remotely familiar with the hard problem of consciousness? How about the binding problem? Consciousness is probably the most mysterious thing that exists.

 

[Revoltingest]

Not necessarily. Ever played with a program like "Eliza"? Sufficiently advanced, such software could give you a very convincing illusion that you're speaking to a real person ... but you'd still be talking to software.

Such programs are mere simple mimics, only from our perspective.
But what if a mimic were so sophisticated that it believed it had consciousness?

 

[nazz]

Such programs are mere simple mimics, only from our perspective.
But what if a mimic were so sophisticated that it believed it had consciousness?

If it believed anything it would be by definition conscious as believing is a conscious activity.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Are you serious? Even if you take a purely physicalist view you don't find the idea of stimulating a lump of flesh with electricity producing all the rich internal experience of consciousness to be just slightly mysterious? Are you even remotely familiar with the hard problem of consciousness? How about the binding problem? Consciousness is probably the most mysterious thing that exists.

The real problem with consciousness is that people just don't see it for what it really is. They see it as the ability to be self aware or to display sentience, which is true to that extent, but this definition really doesn't explain much as to why this is even the case. I see consciousness differently perhaps...a bit mechanically. The way I see it, consciousness is simply the ability for things to act, react, and respond to external forces or stimuli. Everything has this ability at some level. Even a rock reacts when external forces are applied to it. The human brain is simply a very highly evolved mechanism or organ for doing just that. It allows us to act, react, and respond to external forces or stimuli on quite an advanced and complex level. Ultimately, the brain is just a highly organized lump of matter doing what all matter does...acting and reacting to external forces and changing form over time. So considering the way I view consciousness...how is it so "mysterious"?


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[nazz]

The real problem with consciousness is that people just don't see it for what it really is. They see it as the ability to be self aware or to display sentience, which is true to that extent, but this definition really doesn't explain much as to why this is even the case. I see consciousness differently perhaps...a bit mechanically. The way I see it, consciousness is simply the ability for things to act, react, and respond to external forces or stimuli. Everything has this ability at some level. Even a rock reacts when external forces are applied to it. The human brain is simply a very highly evolved mechanism or organ for doing just that. It allows us to act, react, and respond to external forces or stimuli on quite an advanced and complex level. Ultimately, the brain is just a highly organized lump of matter doing what all matter does...acting and reacting to external forces and changing form over time. So considering the way I view consciousness...how is it so "mysterious"?

It isn't. But of course you just reduced consciousness down to basically nothing. If you want to deny what consciousness really is, fine. But please don't pretend that you are more intelligent and rational than people like me. That is what irks me.

 

[Runewolf1973]

It isn't. But of course you just reduced consciousness down to basically nothing. If you want to deny what consciousness really is, fine. But please don't pretend that you are more intelligent and rational than people like me. That is what irks me.

I am really not more intelligent or rational than anyone, and I appologize if you got that idea. I simply have a different way of looking at things. Everyone has their own way and there is no wrong in that. My own way of thinking is at times very simplistic and almost primitive, which is why I am not all that interested in semantics and that kind of stuff. I am an animist, and I like keeping things simple.

But think about it from my perspective...

What is consciousness really, aside from our body or our brain's ability to act, react, and respond to things that affect us?


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[nazz]

I am really not more intelligent or rational than anyone, and I appologize if you got that idea. I simply have a different way of looking at things. Everyone has their own way and there is no wrong in that.

But think about it from my perspective...

What is consciousness really, aside from our body or our brain's ability to act, react, and respond to things that affect us?

Because plenty of things can do that that are not conscious.

 

[nazz]

Because plenty of things can do that that are not conscious.

Consciousness is the ability to do all those things and also experience doing them.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Because plenty of things can do that that are not conscious.

Exactly.

So what we consider (what I consider) "consciousness" is not so mysterious, nor is it uncommon, nor is it necessarily confined to a brain. It can therefore exist to some extent outside of a brain. Well, that's how I see it anyway.


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[Runewolf1973]

Consciousness is the ability to do all those things and also experience doing them.

That ability to experience is just another form of the same thing the way I see it.

 

[nazz]

That ability to experience is just another form of the same thing the way I see it.

Well what I'll give you is that those other things may be be experiencing things in some way, may be conscious in some way. But consciousness and experience do mean something when compared with non-consciousness and non-experience.

 

[Sha'irullah]

You seem to be coming up with some twisted version of Solipsism it appears. Although as to how consciousness can be an illusion makes no sense. Reality can be an illusion but without consciousness we have no perception at all. It is like sleeping walking, you are doing something yet cannot perceive it. To perceive something we must be aware of it and obviously we are aware of doing something.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Try not to over-analyze what it is I am saying. Basically, all I am saying is that conciousness and even life are nothing more than complex processes of the interactions of matter and energy. They are entirely physical, mechanistic processes, not something mysterious or supernaturally derived.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Try not to over-analyze what it is I am saying. Basically, all I am saying is that conciousness and even life are nothing more than complex processes of the interactions of matter and energy. They are entirely physical, mechanistic processes, not something mysterious or supernaturally derived.

Isn't that what most scientist believe?

Wait are you trying to make an argument supporting materialism? At first I thought you were doing the reverse and asserting that what we perceive is really mental

 

[Runewolf1973]

Isn't that what most scientist believe?

Wait are you trying to make an argument supporting materialism? At first I thought you were doing the reverse and asserting that what we perceive is really mental

As much as they are physical processes, I was demonstrating that those same processes or similar exist at different levels which are not entirely dependent on a brain. Something as simple as a rock with no brain has the ability the act and react to external forces. It may not have the same evolved level of perception that we do as humans, but it is still affected and it still gives a reaction to its environment. Consciousness (from a material perspective) is not a whole lot different...action/reaction, but on a much more complex and advanced level. This idea that it is some mysterious thing that exists only in brains (because we feel conscious and a rock does not seem conscious) is an illusion. Those same interactions, actions/reactions exist everywhere. All of existence is animated and interactive in that way.

 

[Sha'irullah]

As much as they are physical processes, I was demonstrating that those same processes or similar exist at different levels which are not entirely dependent on a brain. Something as simple as a rock with no brain has the ability the act and react to external forces.

Are you sure that a rock is making a reaction to forces or is probably just abiding by the laws of energy

It may not have the same evolved level of perception that we do as humans, but it is still affected and it still gives a reaction to its environment.

True true

Consciousness (from a material perspective) is not a whole lot different...action/reaction, but on a much more complex and advanced level. This idea that it is some mysterious thing that exists only in brains (because we feel conscious and a rock does not seem conscious) is an illusion. Those same interactions, actions/reactions exist everywhere. All of existence is animated and interactive in that way.

This is called energy, and a very popular one abides by the laws of thermodynamics. No conscious decision is being made. Reaction can be both with or without consciousness.
How we react to a person's death is not physical.
How we react to being pricked by a pin is on the other hand.

Reactions are formed from physical or metaphysical causes

 

[Runewolf1973]

Are you sure that a rock is making a reaction to forces or is probably just abiding by the laws of energy

Definitely a reaction to external forces which are applied to it, and that is abiding by the laws of physics.

This is called energy, and a very popular one abides by the laws of thermodynamics. No conscious decision is being made. Reaction can be both with or without consciousness.
How we react to a person's death is not physical.
How we react to being pricked by a pin is on the other hand.
Reactions are formed from physical or metaphysical causes

How we react to a person’s death is due to those same actions/reactions, but happening on a highly advanced level. Those external actions (seeing someone dying for example), triggers a chemical reaction to occur within our brains and our bodies and in that way affects the chemistry. It is that delicate chemistry which makes us feel happy or sad, excited or relaxed, or any other of the various emotions. It is that chemistry which allows us to feel, to taste, to have sight, to have life, or to experience death. All these things are physical, not metaphysical. That feeling of being conscious or aware is a physically derived feeling, not some mysterious or separately existing metaphysical "force". It is quite simply "doing what matter does"...acting/reacting to other forms of matter and changing form. This is not something confined to a brain, it just happens that our brains allow these interactions to take place on a much more complex level than what occurs in simpler forms not having such a complex brain, or perhaps not having a brain at all.


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[MD]

Definitely a reaction to external forces which are applied to it, and that is abiding by the laws of physics.


How we react to a person’s death is due to those same actions/reactions, but happening on a highly advanced level. Those external actions (seeing someone dying for example), triggers a chemical reaction to occur within our brains and our bodies and in that way affects the chemistry. It is that delicate chemistry which makes us feel happy or sad, excited or relaxed, or any other of the various emotions. It is that chemistry which allows us to feel, to taste, to have sight, to have life, or to experience death. All these things are physical, not metaphysical. That feeling of being conscious or aware is a physically derived feeling, not some mysterious or separately existing metaphysical "force". It is quite simply "doing what matter does"...acting/reacting to other forms of matter and changing form. This is not something confined to a brain, it just happens that our brains allow these interactions to take place on a much more complex level than what occurs in simpler forms not having a complex brain.

I don't think you fully understand why consciousness is such a mystery to almost everyone in the scientific and philosophical community. The perceptions you describe do not exist in physical reality. They somehow emerge from the physical interactions of the brain, but the physical interactions are simply particles and electromagnetics. How can they create perception? There is a gap between the physical and what we perceive, and this ontological gap is referred to as the Hard Problem of Consciousness. In my opinion it should be called the Impossible problem .

For example the color red. Red doesn't exist in physical reality, it's simply a wavelength of light which is nothing more than energy. But it hits the cones in our eyes and then is processed in our brain and somehow the experience of red appears to us. The same thing with emotions which are particles interacting with each other.

If you believe matter can create these completely novel properties in our minds, then matter is not the only substrate in the universe. The mind is a separate property which has come about through matter ie property dualism.

Then there's also the concept of intentionality, which basically is the idea that we assign meaning to things. We understand. Computers don't understand, there's a thought experiment by John Searle called the Chinese room experiment which expands upon this.

 

[Runewolf1973]

I don't think you fully understand why consciousness is such a mystery to almost everyone in the scientific and philosophical community. The perceptions you describe do not exist in physical reality. They somehow emerge from the physical interactions of the brain, but the physical interactions are simply particles and electromagnetics. How can they create perception? There is a gap between the physical and what we perceive, and this ontological gap is referred to as the Hard Problem of Consciousness. In my opinion it should be called the Impossible problem .

For example the color red. Red doesn't exist in physical reality, it's simply a wavelength of light which is nothing more than energy. But it hits the cones in our eyes and then is processed in our brain and somehow the experience of red appears to us. The same thing with emotions which are particles interacting with each other.

If you believe matter can create these completely novel properties in our minds, then matter is not the only substrate in the universe. The mind is a separate property which has come about through matter ie property dualism.

Then there's also the concept of intentionality, which basically is the idea that we assign meaning to things. We understand. Computers don't understand, there's a thought experiment by John Searle called the Chinese room experiment which expands upon this.

The way I see it, it is simply a matter of those particles or electromagnetics in our brains or our bodies picking up (reacting) to those signals which we receive from those external forces. The way I see it, everything is connected in some way via the forces and energy that is present in the universe. Therefore, there is no “gap” because we are in a way connected to that which we perceive with our senses, even if what we perceive happens to be on the other side of the planet. Someone being killed on the other side of the world (action) can directly affect our brain chemistry and in turn make us feel sad or upset (reaction), but why? How is this even possible? I believe it is made possible because those fundamental forces or that energy we have or produce is not confined to our brains, we only think it is. I believe we all (all things) have an energy field much like a subatomic particle or an atom has a "field" which allows the interactions between subatomic particles and atoms. This field emanates outward and interacts with other things, in turn carrying with it signals and patterns and information. That is how we perceive and why we can pick up on things which are not seemingly directly attached to us…because in a way they are attached to us, everything is connected. This is just my way of understanding and it may not be for everyone.

 

[idav]

I don't think you fully understand why consciousness is such a mystery to almost everyone in the scientific and philosophical community. The perceptions you describe do not exist in physical reality. They somehow emerge from the physical interactions of the brain, but the physical interactions are simply particles and electromagnetics. How can they create perception? There is a gap between the physical and what we perceive, and this ontological gap is referred to as the Hard Problem of Consciousness. In my opinion it should be called the Impossible problem .

I think its more a philosophical issue more than a scientific thing. The interaction is the perception otherwise there wouldn't be a reaction. Why should qualia be magic? When I hear magic I think I of illusions, things that trick the mind into perceiving something differently. Our ability to interact and adapt to the environment is awesome but all this requires physical connections. Emotions and feelings are physical reactions.