Could Jesus Have Been Simply a Fraud?

[oldbadger]

It is not known that Paul knew anything of a Jesus of Nazareth because of what Paul writes about where he gets his information from and because Paul gives no clues as to when his Christ would have lived on earth or if he ever did live on earth for that matter.

.... how about Cephas, who Paul knew, and was often in contention with? There could be other 'angles' but I have not studied the letters closely.

The gospels were not written until after Paul's death

,
..... this is why I mentioned 'the stories' or 'the reputation' that Saul/Paul could have heard about, especially during his actions against Christian/JtB groups.

..........but apparently according to some scholars the author of GMark may have known of Paul and the Jerusalem group and/or had Paul's writings before him when he wrote his gospel fiction.

....... I didn'nt know that they propose that G-Mark used Paul's notes.... this is interesting because I have always proposed that Cephas's notes were the foundation of G-Mark.. I need to study further.

There may have been a Jesus of Nazareth or at least a preacher type behind Q, but he is lost to history and according to Wells and Doherty he is not to be conflated with Paul's Christ.

Then I am going to read both, because, as you know, that is what I believe as well. You mention that he is thought (by W and D) to be behind Q. Ok, but I think he is behind the story of G-Mark. Makes sense because its all about (and around) Galilee, with a few days spend in Judea.

 

[oldbadger]

Hello everybody! .

Question:- Can you tell me why Saul changed his name?
Since he was a contract busting bloke who stopped doing what he was paid to do, possibly after being paid to do it, it got me thinking about why he decided to call himself 'somebody else'.

So..... back to the thread..... is Paul the Fraud, and not any of his chosen theological Avatars?

 

[steeltoes]

Hello everybody! .

Question:- Can you tell me why Saul changed his name?
Since he was a contract busting bloke who stopped doing what he was paid to do, possibly after being paid to do it, it got me thinking about why he decided to call himself 'somebody else'.

So..... back to the thread..... is Paul the Fraud, and not any of his chosen theological Avatars?

NO one knows, many theories tossed around but that's about it.

 

[steeltoes]

.... how about Cephas, who Paul knew, and was often in contention with? There could be other 'angles' but I have not studied the letters closely.

All we know about Cephas is what we can garner from reading Paul.

,
..... this is why I mentioned 'the stories' or 'the reputation' that Saul/Paul could have heard about, especially during his actions against Christian/JtB groups.

All Paul states is that he persecuted the church of God.

Galatians 1:13

• You have heard what my manner of life was when I was still a practicing Jew: how savagely I persecuted the church of God, and tried to destroy it. [NEB]

"A church founded by the followers of the earthly Jesus, who had personally chosen them as apostles and had directed them to teach all nations—and yet Paul calls it "the church of God"? On the other hand, if that church had formed as a result of God’s revelation through the Spirit (as Paul and other epistle writers repeatedly say), with Jesus merely the content of that revelation, the term is perfectly apt." THE SOUND OF SILENCE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT EPISTLES: GALATIANS

....... I didn'nt know that they propose that G-Mark used Paul's notes.... this is interesting because I have always proposed that Cephas's notes were the foundation of G-Mark.. I need to study further.

Then I am going to read both, because, as you know, that is what I believe as well. You mention that he is thought (by W and D) to be behind Q. Ok, but I think he is behind the story of G-Mark. Makes sense because its all about (and around) Galilee, with a few days spend in Judea.

Some scholars consider the gospels to be a work of fiction while others do not.

 

[steeltoes]

...All of chapter 16.... early copies of the book have been found without the last verses..... let's wipe chapter 16 out of the book. I cannot 'source' this info just now, but 'Gospel of Mark added verses' entered into the old www should throw up the info.

here's a source:

Mark 16 NIV - Jesus Has Risen - When the Sabbath was - Bible Gateway

 

[Thief]

So we've come this far and no conclusion is in sight.

Can we assume Jesus as a character?
Fictional or real.
Does anyone think it really matters?

The character is said have done miracles.
That might be a trick.
It might not.

But that would not be the focus.

His ministry was the focus.
His teachings are the prime discussion.

Did He lie?
If He did then MOST of this world has been deceived and it will fail...spiritually.

If He told the truth....then SOME of this world will survive....spiritually.

Do you think it makes a difference?

It is said ....many are called, few are chosen.
The alleged fraud will be the outcry of those who fail.

 

[steeltoes]

So we've come this far and no conclusion is in sight.

Can we assume Jesus as a character?
Fictional or real.
Does anyone think it really matters?

The character is said have done miracles.
That might be a trick.
It might not.

But that would not be the focus.

His ministry was the focus.
His teachings are the prime discussion.

Did He lie?
If He did then MOST of this world has been deceived and it will fail...spiritually.

If He told the truth....then SOME of this world will survive....spiritually.

Do you think it makes a difference?

It is said ....many are called, few are chosen.
The alleged fraud will be the outcry of those who fail.

For me it doesn't matter and it makes no difference but for Christians I suppose that for most it does make a difference.

Some one wrote down teachings and sayings, for what purpose I don't know but I don't think it was for purposes of fraud.

My spirituality is made up in my own head regardless of what is written in any religious texts, I simply debate the NT for the sake of debate and as an aside I may or may not learn something about early century Christianity. I can't fail.

 

[Thief]

For me it doesn't matter and it makes no difference but for Christians I suppose that for most it does make a difference.

Some one wrote down teachings and sayings, for what purpose I don't know but I don't think it was for purposes of fraud.

My spirituality is made up in my own head regardless of what is written in any religious texts, I simply debate the NT for the sake of debate and as an aside I may or may not learn something about early century Christianity.

So...you lean to the Character Himself?.....and the religion?

But the parables are not your focus?

 

[steeltoes]

So...you lean to the Character Himself?.....and the religion?

But the parables are not your focus?

I'm afraid I don't lean much to anything, religion is not really for me. I am not entirely convinced that all of the authors expected their books to be part of a religious canon.

Right, the parables are not my focus.

Is there a particular parable that you like, one that you gain meaning from?

 

[Thief]

I'm afraid I don't lean much to anything, religion is not really for me. I am not entirely convinced that all of the authors expected their books to be part of a religious canon.

Right, the parables are not my focus.

Is there a particular parable that you like, one that you gain meaning from?

I lean to them all.

In the next life we might have communication.
There is of course a mind set to the things we say.

As I read the parables, I did notice the stories are aimed at the mind and heart....as if to polish the stone to a high luster.

I would prefer to be a gem in the hand of my Lord....
than a bead in the necklace of the wicked.

See how it works?

 

[steeltoes]

I lean to them all.

In the next life we might have communication.
There is of course a mind set to the things we say.

As I read the parables, I did notice the stories are aimed at the mind and heart....as if to polish the stone to a high luster.

I would prefer to be a gem in the hand of my Lord....
than a bead in the necklace of the wicked.

See how it works?

Good vs evil?

 

[steeltoes]

Oldbadger,

Romans 13 is another clue that Paul's Christ was not crucified by Pilate:


3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

 

[oldbadger]

Oldbadger,

Romans 13 is another clue that Paul's Christ was not crucified by Pilate:


3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

This attitude of Paul's came up earlier in the thread, I think.... I see another possibility.... Paul is telling his followers, 'Look what happens when you cause trouble in the Temple!'.
Again...... this undercurrent of 'I am the true way, although I push Jesus's name forward.'

 

[steeltoes]

This attitude of Paul's came up earlier in the thread, I think.... I see another possibility.... Paul is telling his followers, 'Look what happens when you cause trouble in the Temple!'.
Again...... this undercurrent of 'I am the true way, although I push Jesus's name forward.'

No one thinks Paul believed Christ was a wrongdoer, quite the contrary.

 

[outhouse]

This attitude of Paul's came up earlier in the thread, I think.... I see another possibility.... Paul is telling his followers, 'Look what happens when you cause trouble in the Temple!'.
Again...... this undercurrent of 'I am the true way, although I push Jesus's name forward.'

I dont know about all that.

But Romans has nothing to do with Pilate nad the crucifixion

 

[edwardgledson]

it is so difficult to prove

 

[paarsurrey]

Could Jesus Have Been Simply a Fraud?

Jesus as a christian god or son of god is clear fraud invented by Paul and the Church.

As a perfect man; Jesus was a real person and exemplary in ethical, moral and spiritual domains.

Regards