Could Nothingness Be Another Dimension In And Of Itself?

[godnotgod]

I'm saying the universe is beyond all views, including the mystic view. Your view is not and never will be absolute.

Unless, of course, there is only viewing without a viewer.

 

[godnotgod]

You didn't have to. You still recognized differentiating aspects of the Universe i.e. identifiable parts. You can sit back and say they aren't, but that doesn't change the fact that you did identify them. You wouldn't be able to do this with an elementary particle.

The differentiating exists only in the mind of the observer, but I am differentiating 'star' and 'planet' not as 'part', but as inseparable 'feature', or better yet, 'manifestation', whereas you are differentiating them as 'part'. Most of us do dfferentiate features of the Universe as 'parts' due to our long-term social conditioning to see everything in terms of subject/object, ie; 'this' vs 'that', esp when it comes to 'I' vs. everything else.

No, I'm referring to the literal wave. The literal distortion/warping/oscillation within a medium. That can be transferred from one medium to another, e.g. a seismic wave converted into an ocean wave.

Yes, I understand. I was referring to the form the medium, in this case, 'formless ocean water', assumes. Everything in the Universe is some kind of energy-wave, manifesting as 'rock' or 'tree' or 'star', etc. on the gross level, through whatever medium, but even the medium is composed of some form of energy-waves. My point was simply that the visible water-wave is not a part of the ocean; it is the ocean itself, 'part' being an idea in the mind of the observer.

A star and a planet are identifiable parts on their own. I don't need to consider the rest of the Universe.

Not consciously, but the background of the Universe is absolutely essential for your identification. It's just that your attention is focused momentarily and deliberately on the foreground of 'star' or 'planet' while not realizing you have put the background that is 'Universe' out of the way. IOW, background is passive, but essential, just as sea is essential to fish, though fish does not know he is in the sea. Having said all that, 'star' and 'planet' (+ all the rest) are none other than 'Universe' itself, since the Universe is not a vessel that contains 'star' or 'planets'. Star' and 'planet', etc. are precisely what 'Universe' is.

In science, the applications are what verify the reality of a theoretical model. So what are you using to verify what "actual reality" is if you're not using what applications your POV grants?

'Applications' and 'model' are working ideas as to the behavior of phenomena, just as a piano is a working model to play music, along with a player. But the music is not in the piano. To get to the music, one must actively listen directly. In the same manner, to get to the true nature of things, one must learn to see directly, in a much different way than our socialization has indoctrinated us to see, which is via the conceptual mind. An unconditioned view will immediately see 'wave' and 'ocean' as one; 'self' and 'Universe' as one.

Again, how do you verify this? I'd expect being able to see the ultimate truth of the Universe, would grant this person immense capabilities. He'd probably be able to build the ultimate space ship, and would be able to predict the weather perfectly for the rest of the Earth's life. Hell, maybe he'd have superpowers. This all would in tern, verify that he actually sees the ultimate truth.

If you're professing that seeing the ultimate truth doesn't grant any of this, or any other utility, then it really isn't good for anything (which would mean it's not the ultimate truth).

Someone who sees things as they are will approach Reality a bit differently than before his experience. He can use science, but his perspective is not the same as before. His priorities have changed. He might prefer to use scientific knowledge to feed the world rather than build space ships. Why? Because along with his Enlightenment, comes compassion for the suffering of others on a universal scale. He now places the cart correctly behind the horse in his daily life. Nothing stupendous; just a subtle change of priorities. Life goes on. So it's not about getting the answers to all of the details about the Universe; but establishing a firm center from which one sees everything just as it is. One is now seeing things via the Universe itself, rather than via a conditioned personal view. Mystics have no quarrel with science, but their focus is on seeing into the singular nature of all things, rather than about the myriad details. Science cannot yield a view as to the nature of the Universe due to its very methodology, which is clinical dissection and reduction.

That's really the whole point of having knowledge of any kind, is to be able to do stuff with it. But just having knowledge for the sake of having it? "Okay, you can build computers and spaceships, but I still see the ultimate truth." Okay. So? What has it done for anyone? What does it get you? The question is, what can you and the mystics do with this view of the Universe? The ancient mystics, that you proclaim are ahead of scientists, have no record of producing computers, or spaceships, or predict the weather.

That modern man has placed the cart ahead of the horse in his pursuit of the glitter of science and technology is quite evident from the current sad state of affairs of the world. Spiritually immature man is still driven by greed, lust, hatred, power, sensation, security, with disastrous results. Science and technology are beneficial things, but in the wrong hands ($$$) are dangerous weapons. I am sure you must be aware of the evil goings-on of Monsanto Corp, for example? It's really all about real happiness. Attaining true happiness first, and then considering the applications of science and technology guided by his new vision will guarantee a balanced and harmonious world.

So what does it do? And please no cliche answer like it makes you feel better or more peaceful or something. I've heard a person of every religion say something like this, and I doubt all of them collectively see the ultimate truth (since all religions are incompatible). If it doesn't grant you any utility, I profess that it's not the ultimate truth, or even close to it.

I have not been referring to any religious view at all, but to a spiritual transformation of consciousness, in which one sees things as they actually are, rather than how our conditioned mind only thinks they are. The conditioned mind is in pursuit of any one of three goals: Security, Sensation, and Power, sometimes in combination. These are Addictions, and can only be transformed into Preferences via this radical transformation of conscious awareness, which is via the Fourth Center of Consciousness: Love. Without this transformation, man will pursue life in a mechanical manner, seeing the Universe in mechanistic terms, and ultimately regarding humans as 'things' to be manipulated and discarded, like used-up parts of a machine. This is the danger humanity now faces more than ever before, considering the immense destructive and controlling power now in his hands due to science and technology, which is very easy to justify when social conditions reach a certain level of erosion.

How do you know? How do you verify this?

via a spiritual awakening which only you can experience directly. Having said that, it is not the development of a personal view, but the discarding of all personal, conditioned views.

Citation needed.

People use delusion for comfort (pick any religion as an example) and avoid uncomfortable truths that might make them unhappy.

It should be quite obvious to you that deluded people are not truly happy, but only maintain a facade of happiness, who are fictional characters in a script to a drama written by others. This is the hurdle anyone who seriously embarks upon the spiritual path must ultimately face and transcend.

 

[AndromedaRXJ]

The differentiating exists only in the mind of the observer, but I am differentiating 'star' and 'planet' not as 'part', but as inseparable 'feature', or better yet, 'manifestation', whereas you are differentiating them as 'part'. Most of us do dfferentiate features of the Universe as 'parts' due to our long-term social conditioning to see everything in terms of subject/object, ie; 'this' vs 'that', esp when it comes to 'I' vs. everything else.

You're still differentiating the aspects of the universe, and thus recognize it as non-uniform. That's the nature of any system. You don't recognize the star as the planet and the planet as the star (even if you say you do. In practice, you wouldn't. i.e. you wouldn't land a spaceship on the Sun with the idea that it's also the Earth). Sitting back in your armchair, you may say you do. But your actions would say something different.

My point was simply that the visible water-wave is not a part of the ocean; it is the ocean itself, 'part' being an idea in the mind of the observer.

Except for when it was a seismic wave.

Not consciously, but the background of the Universe is absolutely essential for your identification. It's just that your attention is focused momentarily and deliberately on the foreground of 'star' or 'planet' while not realizing you have put the background that is 'Universe' out of the way.

But you still recognize a "foreground" and a "background" i.e. differentiation.

'Applications' and 'model' are working ideas as to the behavior of phenomena, just as a piano is a working model to play music, along with a player.

The applications are not ideas. They're actions. And I'm not sure this is really a good analogy. A piano is a instrument/tool/ designed to function a certain way. A scientific theory is meant to explain things and predict things. I don't see the analogy.

But the music is not in the piano. To get to the music, one must actively listen directly.

But in order to listen, you need someone else to play the instrument, right? You can't listen to music that's not being played. So you need scientists to build models and use applications (play the instrument) in order for you to get to the ultimate truth (hear them play the music)?

You can hear them play the music all you want, but the truth is, the one playing the music themselves will hear it better than anyone listening from a distance. So try playing the music for once.

In the same manner, to get to the true nature of things, one must learn to

see directly.

And the only way to see directly is to build and play the right instruments (do science). Okay great.

He might prefer to use scientific knowledge to feed the world rather than build space ships. Why?

How often do mystics actually go out and feed the world?

Because along with his Enlightenment, comes compassion for the suffering of others on a universal scale.

You don't need spirituality to have compassion.

Spiritually immature man is still driven by greed, lust, hatred, power, sensation, security, with disastrous results.

So every non-spiritual person you've met was greedy, lustful, hateful, and power hungry?

Science and technology are beneficial things, but in the wrong hands ($$$) are dangerous weapons.

Very true. Science enables one to do things the most efficient way possible, whether it's growing food and feeding people, or systematically killing people.

via a spiritual awakening which only you can experience directly. Having said that, it is not the development of a personal view, but the discarding of all personal, conditioned views.

And how do you know when you have a spiritual awakening?

It should be quite obvious to you that deluded people are not truly happy.

If it's obvious, it should be pretty easy to provide a citation or some physical proof.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Unless, of course, there is only viewing without a viewer.

Which is not possible.

 

[Runewolf1973]

The Tao that is one is expressed in duality...ying and yang...or negative and positive...from these two are derived the ten thousand/infinite things.. The divine or supreme awareness resides in the one....all of the celestial hierarchy down to the terrestrial hierarchy of mortals, etc., reside in some degree of limited awareness due to observing the one as comprising multiple parts... Sure it is correct that there are limitations of awareness at each level of the hierarchy (holarchy is a more correct term), but there is purpose in the universe and evolution is such that once an incarnate entity has realized truly what and who they are at the level they presently find themselves, the evolved awareness move on to the next higher level.. At the level of human, the realization of what and who one really is, can not be done without understanding the underlying transcendent unity of all that is.... People are not equal...water finds its own level...it is fine, for example, for atheists to function fully in duality/maya awareness as that is where they are learning vital lessons that are prerequisite to moving on and up to the next level. Each soul is unique yet simultaneously ubique... The universe is strictly one though and dualistic awareness will never in all eternity realize non-duality.....but that is not to say an entity that can function in dualistic awareness can't dwell in the oneness when appropriate....but to do that the dualistic awareness must be transcended and the mind be in a state of non-duality...

As long as you are concerned with moving up levels or transcending this or that, you will never find the peace which resides in the present moment. Duality is not something you need to transcend and oneness is not something you need to attain. All is already here-now in the present moment. Having a dualistic or nondualistic view makes no difference to the universe which is beyond all such views.

 

[godnotgod]

Which is not possible.

Where/what is the 'viewer'?

 

[Runewolf1973]

Where/what is the 'viewer'?

Look in the mirror.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

As long as you are concerned with moving up levels or transcending this or that, you will never find the peace which resides in the present moment. Duality is not something you need to transcend and oneness is not something you need to attain. All is already here-now in the present moment. Having a dualistic or nondualistic view makes no difference to the universe which is beyond all such views.

No one said the one that is all is not eternally present... It is not the 'you' or 'I' that goes anywhere...it is the expanded awareness that arises to apprehend the non-duality.. While in a state of mind where there is no dualistic perception....the self awareness begins to merge/integrate with the oneness...when the mind drops back into dualistic perception...it has changed ever so slightly forever and begins to realize that the duality is a relative state of mind in that it is is only seeing aspects of the ONE...in time and space...whereas in the non-dual state...there is no time-space perception...only seeing without a seer.. An angel for instance has a degree of self awareness that to the profane, if they were to be exposed to it, would seem like death... for there is no time-space perception as we experience reality.. Yet all living souls will in some lifetime make it to the next kingdom.. The principle involved is captured in this little piece from Sufi master Jalaluddin Rumi...and fwiw, knowing your disdain for the term 'God', just interpret it to mean non-duality...or whatever is the concept of your choice to represent the oneness behind universal manifestation..


I died as a mineral and became a plant;
I died as a plant and rose to animal;
I died as an animal and I was a man.
Why should I fear?
When was I less by dying?
Yet once more I shall die as man to soar...
With angels blest.
But even from an angel I must pass on:
All except God must perish.
When I have sacrificed my angel soul,
I shall become what no mind ever conceived.

 

[Runewolf1973]

No one said the one that is all is not eternally present... It is not the 'you' or 'I' that goes anywhere...it is the expanded awareness that arises to apprehend the non-duality.. While in a state of mind where there is no dualistic perception....the self awareness begins to merge/integrate with the oneness...when the mind drops back into dualistic perception...it has changed ever so slightly forever and begins to realize that the duality is a relative state of mind in that it is is only seeing aspects of the ONE...in time and space...whereas in the non-dual state...there is no time-space perception...only seeing without a seer.. An angel for instance has a degree of self awareness that to the profane, if they were to be exposed to it, would seem like death... for there is no time-space perception as we experience reality.. Yet all living souls will in some lifetime make it to the next kingdom.. The principle involved is captured in this little piece from Sufi master Jalaluddin Rumi...and fwiw, knowing your disdain for the term 'God', just interpret it to mean non-duality...or whatever is the concept of your choice to represent the oneness behind universal manifestation..


I died as a mineral and became a plant;
I died as a plant and rose to animal;
I died as an animal and I was a man.
Why should I fear?
When was I less by dying?
Yet once more I shall die as man to soar...
With angels blest.
But even from an angel I must pass on:
All except God must perish.
When I have sacrificed my angel soul,
I shall become what no mind ever conceived.

I'll stick with my view of universal interaction which is neither truly dualistic, nor is it truly non-dualistic. I don't believe there is anything to be gained in favoring one view over the other. The universe is the One with Many faces.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I'll stick with my view of universal interaction which is neither truly dualistic, nor is it truly non-dualistic. I don't believe there is anything to be gained in favoring one view over the other. The universe is the One with Many faces.

That's fine...the universe does indeed appear to have many faces.... but underlying the endless material transformations/interactions is a.... no I will not go there as I presume you respect my present understanding on this, so I will respect yours...until next time that is..

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Mystics speculating/hallucinating/meditating in caves is also a total action of the Universe.

 

[godnotgod]

Look in the mirror.

What is it I am supposed to see?

 

[godnotgod]

I'll stick with my view of universal interaction which is neither truly dualistic, nor is it truly non-dualistic. I don't believe there is anything to be gained in favoring one view over the other. The universe is the One with Many faces.

It's just that the view of 'this' vs. 'that' is a descension of the One View. When we forget it's source, there is delusion. That is why I keep pointing to the background/source of the phenomenal world, while you focus on only the phenomenal world, forgetting the background from which it is constantly emerging from, and returning to, just as the ocean wave arises out of the formless sea, breaks, and then returns to the sea. The wave, like phenomena, comes and goes, but the background does not come and go.

Yin and Yang always remain unified as a seamless whole.

 

[godnotgod]

That's fine...the universe does indeed appear to have many faces....

'One Light, though the lamps be Many'

 

[godnotgod]

At Master Spiny's request, I offer up a delicious plate of yet more of the illustrious and inimitable Mr. Alan Watts:

 

[Rick O'Shez]

It's just that the view of 'this' vs. 'that' is a descension of the One View. When we forget it's source, there is delusion. That is why I keep pointing to the background/source of the phenomenal world, while you focus on only the phenomenal world, forgetting the background from which it is constantly emerging from, and returning to, just as the ocean wave arises out of the formless sea, breaks, and then returns to the sea. The wave, like phenomena, comes and goes, but the background does not come and go.Yin and Yang always remain unified as a seamless whole.

I'm still not getting this ocean metaphor. It's all just water in motion, waves on top, currents beneath.
Like the universe is all just stuff in motion.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

The Tao that is one is expressed in duality...ying and yang...or negative and positive...from these two are derived the ten thousand/infinite things.. The divine or supreme awareness resides in the one....all of the celestial hierarchy down to the terrestrial hierarchy of mortals, etc., reside in some degree of limited awareness due to observing the one as comprising multiple parts... Sure it is correct that there are limitations of awareness at each level of the hierarchy (holarchy is a more correct term), but there is purpose in the universe and evolution is such that once an incarnate entity has realized truly what and who they are at the level they presently find themselves, the evolved awareness move on to the next higher level.. At the level of human, the realization of what and who one really is, can not be done without understanding the underlying transcendent unity of all that is.... People are not equal...water finds its own level...it is fine, for example, for atheists to function fully in duality/maya awareness as that is where they are learning vital lessons that are prerequisite to moving on and up to the next level. Each soul is unique yet simultaneously ubique... The universe is strictly one though and dualistic awareness will never in all eternity realize non-duality.....but that is not to say an entity that can function in dualistic awareness can't dwell in the oneness when appropriate....but to do that the dualistic awareness must be transcended and the mind be in a state of non-duality...

I still don't understand why you insist on surrounding meditative states with a load of woo and magical thinking. What purpose does it serve?

 

[godnotgod]

You're still differentiating the aspects of the universe, and thus recognize it as non-uniform. That's the nature of any system. You don't recognize the star as the planet and the planet as the star...

You differentiate them as 'parts'; I am differentiating them as features, outcroppings, manifestations, while never being separated in any way from the rest of the Universe.

Except for when it was a seismic wave.

A tsunami ocean wave is the result of seismic activity. Not referring to the cause, but to the wave-form, made of water, as is the ocean itself. You, as a human form, are an expression of the entire Universe.

But you still recognize a "foreground" and a "background" i.e. differentiation.

Yes, but background and foreground are one reality/experience. Most of us do not realize we are also experiencing the background of existence simply because we have egos which think they are separate from the Universe, acting upon it, which is why humans experience a lot of suffering. You know...'the best laid plans of mice and men'.

The applications are not ideas. They're actions. And I'm not sure this is really a good analogy. A piano is a instrument/tool/ designed to function a certain way. A scientific theory is meant to explain things and predict things. I don't see the analogy.

Applications began as ideas, put into action.

The analogy is that the music cannot be found by dismantling the piano, as the secrets of the Universe cannot be found by scientific Analysis, Logic, and Reason, all of which are systems of thought which use dissection and disassembly. The idea is that the Universe is similar to a mechanical device, and its 'parts' can be disassembled, analyzed, and then reassembled to one day say:
'Ah Ha! So THAT'S it! Not gonna happen that way, I can assure you.

But in order to listen, you need someone else to play the instrument, right? You can't listen to music that's not being played. So you need scientists to build models and use applications (play the instrument) in order for you to get to the ultimate truth (hear them play the music)?

You can hear them play the music all you want, but the truth is, the one playing the music themselves will hear it better than anyone listening from a distance. So try playing the music for once.

My point is that clinical analysis of the instrument will not give you music; you have to attentively listen to understand the music. In the same manner, you cannot get to a true understanding as to the nature of things by intellectual analysis (ie science); you can only do so via seeing into the very heart of Reality itself.

And the only way to see directly is to build and play the right instruments (do science). Okay great.

We already have the right equipment, but most of us do not know how to use it. But in order to learn to see, a lot of baggage must first be gotten out of the way, like concepts, beliefs, ideas, doctrines, etc., things we've been indoctrinated with since childhood. Just know that what we have been looking for has been right under our noses all along, but we don't see it because we don't know where or how to look for it.

How often do mystics actually go out and feed the world?

Just many ordinary people who have had some sort of transformation of consciousness are active in this pursuit all over the world, quietly working for such goals. No need to toot their horns.

You don't need spirituality to have compassion.

Compassion without a spiritual element is an intellectualized kind of compassion. You need to identify on a first-hand basis with those who are suffering, and that comes from the heart.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

At Master Spiny's request, I offer up a delicious plate of yet more of the illustrious and inimitable Mr. Alan Watts:

 

[godnotgod]

I'm still not getting this ocean metaphor. It's all just water in motion, waves on top, currents beneath.
Like the universe is all just stuff in motion.

Right, so no aspect of the Universe is a separate 'part'. A wave is the ocean itself, not a part of the ocean. Both are made of the same substance: water.