ThisShouldMakeSense
Active Member
Hi,
Could someone please explain the trinity? i'm curious.
Thanks
Could someone please explain the trinity? i'm curious.
Thanks
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Could someone please explain the trinity?
- Thread starter ThisShouldMakeSense
- Start date
Scott1
Well-Known Member
Pretty good discussion about it here: Trinity Myth
Halcyon
Lord of the Badgers
Wow, get to the point quickly don't you?
From a non-christian perspective i'd suggest that the trinity is an attempt to allow multiple Gods, in this case the Father (male), the Son - Jesus (male) and the Holy Spirit (gender undetermined) to all exist, but since God proclaimed it a sin to worship anyone but him they were all crammed together into one deity - the Triple God if you like. In Judaism there is no trinity because there is only one God, but when the Christ came along (if that's what you believe) then a problem occured because suddenly you have multiple objects of worship - that's not allowed, so there's only one solution, mash 'em together.
I'm sure there are people who will disagree with me - tis just my personal viewpoint afterall.
From a non-christian perspective i'd suggest that the trinity is an attempt to allow multiple Gods, in this case the Father (male), the Son - Jesus (male) and the Holy Spirit (gender undetermined) to all exist, but since God proclaimed it a sin to worship anyone but him they were all crammed together into one deity - the Triple God if you like. In Judaism there is no trinity because there is only one God, but when the Christ came along (if that's what you believe) then a problem occured because suddenly you have multiple objects of worship - that's not allowed, so there's only one solution, mash 'em together.
I'm sure there are people who will disagree with me - tis just my personal viewpoint afterall.
ThisShouldMakeSense
Active Member
hi, this is thisshouldmakesence!
dear spLogan,
I don't get it. if that was true, the bible would be full of contridictions...do you believe in the trinity?
i mean if i were to read the bible with no prior knowledge of it, i wouldn't think 'oh yeah, this jesus chap, was God, cos that's who he said he was, what with all the 'worship me' and 'i don't do a single thing of my own initiative.'' stuff. ( i could go on...)
dear spLogan,
I don't get it. if that was true, the bible would be full of contridictions...do you believe in the trinity?
i mean if i were to read the bible with no prior knowledge of it, i wouldn't think 'oh yeah, this jesus chap, was God, cos that's who he said he was, what with all the 'worship me' and 'i don't do a single thing of my own initiative.'' stuff. ( i could go on...)
ThisShouldMakeSense
Active Member
hi michael,
The thing is, i thought that everlasting life means having knowledge of the only true God, and of the one he sent forth, Jesus...accurate knowledge. surly something like the identity of God is important...
The thing is, i thought that everlasting life means having knowledge of the only true God, and of the one he sent forth, Jesus...accurate knowledge. surly something like the identity of God is important...
SoliDeoGloria
Active Member
Michel never denied that concept. There is a difference between "having knowledge" and being able to understand that knowledge which is what Michel pointed out to and why he suggested having faith in the knowledge being true. One can have knowledge of something like the universe existing without being able to understand it completely. Now I could list the basic tenets of the Christian doctrine of the Trinity but I get this itching feeling that ThisShouldMakeSense is looking for more than a mere explaination.
Sincerely,
SoliDeoGloria
The trinity is a manmade doctrine that is stopping people from gaining accurate knowledge of the true God Jehovah,and his son Jesus christ. but not everyone is misled by the trinity doctrine some people stick to the bible teaching , as the early christians did.so you are right to mention the true God and jesus christ as this is in line with the bibleThisShouldMakeSense said:
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Hi, Halcyon.Halcyon said:
I think your last statement pretty much hit the nail on the head. Neo-platonism at its finest.
But I'm curious about one thing... You say that the Father is male and the Son is male. I think virtually all Christians would go along with the Son being male, but to the best of my knowledge, most Christians would say that the Father has no form at all and therefore no gender. (I personally disagree with them on that point, but that's perhaps a subject for later on.)
Kathryn
ThisShouldMakeSense
Active Member
Hi SoliDeoGloria,
You are right, I am looking for more than just an explanation. i'd like to know how or why people can believe in the trinity (and other teachings for that matter) inspite of the fact that there are so many scriptures that prove otherwise, and why people almost blindly accept the things that their church or religion teaches.
why don't they look up the origin of the teaching and see whether it really is in line with the Bible and then be humble enough to accept that they may be wrong and think that perhaps they should do something about it, to please God, rather then themselves...
You are right, I am looking for more than just an explanation. i'd like to know how or why people can believe in the trinity (and other teachings for that matter) inspite of the fact that there are so many scriptures that prove otherwise, and why people almost blindly accept the things that their church or religion teaches.
why don't they look up the origin of the teaching and see whether it really is in line with the Bible and then be humble enough to accept that they may be wrong and think that perhaps they should do something about it, to please God, rather then themselves...
SoliDeoGloria
Active Member
Well, thank you for confirming that "ithching feeling" I had. It's nice to know that you know people so well as to assume that people "blindly" follow and believe this stuff without the sense to "look up the origin of the teaching". But what I find even more interesting is that when you are so proudly ready to make yet to be validated statements like this about people and the beliefs they hold, you accuse these "people" needing to be "humble". But being as how we are on the subject of the doctrine of the trinity, what about it's origins would you like to talk about or the "contradictions" that you are more than ready to point out? Which one would you like to discuss first, The council at Nicea, secular attempts at making the doctrine out to be pagan, etc?
Sincerely,
SolideoGloria
ThisShouldMakeSense
Active Member
Hi SoliDeoGloria,
Thanks for replying. Id like to start by apologizing for sounding disrespectful. ( Just to warn you, theres there quite a lot here )
What gets to me is the fact that I have spoken to several Trinitarians in the past and no matter how many scriptures I show them, they still dont see it.
I mean take for instance what I said about people needing to be humble. That is not a bad thing or a degrading term. It means being willing to accept that our beliefs may not be inline with those of the Bible and therefore Gods.
Take for example the rich young ruler who came to Jesus and said I obey the law, live up to the requirements, since childhood, but what more do I need to do to get everlasting life?
To which Jesus said One things missing. Sell your possessions, give to the poor, you will get treasure in heaven and be my follower. And then we read that the young ruler went away upset.
You see he, although no doubt a good man, a worshiper and a believer, wasnt humble enough to realise that he had to change his life and way of thinking. Make his sacrifice. He couldnt, his possessions held him back. So being humble is a condition of the heart.
And thats my point, so many people, NOT ALL, are not willing to look into their beliefs or way of life any further. (2 Tim. 4:3, 4)
Infact I spoke to an elderly lady who said No thank you Im perfectly happy! after I was willing to show her from the scriptures what the truth is. It makes me sad, to be honest.
Also, the reason I say that people blindly follow, rather than examine to see if the things are really so (Acts 17:11), is that I spoke to a Born Again Christian who stopped me in the street.
He was nice enough, but as I knew that he believes in the trinity, I thought Id first establish what his ideas about it were.Because, even amongst Trinitarians, beliefs vary.
So I asked him, Do you believe that The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are the same age, know the same thing, are the same person, are co-equal, none higher or better than the other, basically one. He said yes.
So then I said, well how come Col. 1:15 says that Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature? It says image of the invisible God, not that he is God, and that he is the first born of creation. The term firstborn always refers the eldest child in a family, (think back to the plagues on the Egyptians) as in this case.
By extension, the term should also be used in connection with The Father and the Holy Spirit. However, it isnt. Only Jesus is referred to that way.
Also Jesus never said that he was God, or The Father. (By the way, I am aware that some Trinitarians teach that when on earth, Jesus was inferior to his position as The Father or The Holy Ghost when I heaven.) If anything, the scriptures call him, amongst other things, The Son of God.
He never directed glory to himself, but always to his father. He said he never did anything of his own initiative, but of the one that sent him.
He came to do his fathers will, not his own. He prayed to his father on the night of his arrest, saying if possible to take this cup away from me and then said but not as I will, but as you will. If Jesus were God, what would be the point of that prayer?
(Id like to know what the trinity teaches with regards to who was in heaven when Jesus was on earth.)
How come Jesus said that no one knows the hour, not the angles in heaven, nor the son but only the father, if they are all co-equal. Besides he could have said, Only The Father and The Holy Ghost know, but he didnt.
Then there was the voice from heaven at his baptism, Matthew 3:17: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
How was that possible if Jesus was God?
How come whenever there were visions of the heavenly throne, by other prophets, only God and Jesus or the Lamb were seen? Never any mention of a third being?
How come the scriptures say that God is the head of the Christ as Christ is the head of the man and man head of the woman, if they are all co-equal?
How come Jesus said he had a God and a Father?
How come Jesus gave The Lords prayer or the Model prayer saying to let your name be hallowed or sanctified, set up higher than all others ? Whos name? Jesus? He always gave glory to his father.
Psalms 83:18: That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, (or YHWH) art the most high over all the earth. And Jesus knew that too.
I was just scratching the surface with my questions. Then he said to me You are looking into it too deeply. Just have faith and accept it. Eh? Thats like saying, Here, take these keys for that car, dont worry if you dont actually know how to drive it, just get in and off you go!!!
It means everlasting life, taking in knowledge, accurate knowledge of God and of the one he sent forth, Jesus Christ. My life depends upon it! How can I just accept it? Its not like Im buying a pair of shoes. Its a bit more important than that I think.
Anyhow, I could go on, believe it or not
If youre still reading, I bet youre glad you asked.
Thanks for replying. Id like to start by apologizing for sounding disrespectful. ( Just to warn you, theres there quite a lot here )
What gets to me is the fact that I have spoken to several Trinitarians in the past and no matter how many scriptures I show them, they still dont see it.
I mean take for instance what I said about people needing to be humble. That is not a bad thing or a degrading term. It means being willing to accept that our beliefs may not be inline with those of the Bible and therefore Gods.
Take for example the rich young ruler who came to Jesus and said I obey the law, live up to the requirements, since childhood, but what more do I need to do to get everlasting life?
To which Jesus said One things missing. Sell your possessions, give to the poor, you will get treasure in heaven and be my follower. And then we read that the young ruler went away upset.
You see he, although no doubt a good man, a worshiper and a believer, wasnt humble enough to realise that he had to change his life and way of thinking. Make his sacrifice. He couldnt, his possessions held him back. So being humble is a condition of the heart.
And thats my point, so many people, NOT ALL, are not willing to look into their beliefs or way of life any further. (2 Tim. 4:3, 4)
Infact I spoke to an elderly lady who said No thank you Im perfectly happy! after I was willing to show her from the scriptures what the truth is. It makes me sad, to be honest.
Also, the reason I say that people blindly follow, rather than examine to see if the things are really so (Acts 17:11), is that I spoke to a Born Again Christian who stopped me in the street.
He was nice enough, but as I knew that he believes in the trinity, I thought Id first establish what his ideas about it were.Because, even amongst Trinitarians, beliefs vary.
So I asked him, Do you believe that The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are the same age, know the same thing, are the same person, are co-equal, none higher or better than the other, basically one. He said yes.
So then I said, well how come Col. 1:15 says that Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature? It says image of the invisible God, not that he is God, and that he is the first born of creation. The term firstborn always refers the eldest child in a family, (think back to the plagues on the Egyptians) as in this case.
By extension, the term should also be used in connection with The Father and the Holy Spirit. However, it isnt. Only Jesus is referred to that way.
Also Jesus never said that he was God, or The Father. (By the way, I am aware that some Trinitarians teach that when on earth, Jesus was inferior to his position as The Father or The Holy Ghost when I heaven.) If anything, the scriptures call him, amongst other things, The Son of God.
He never directed glory to himself, but always to his father. He said he never did anything of his own initiative, but of the one that sent him.
He came to do his fathers will, not his own. He prayed to his father on the night of his arrest, saying if possible to take this cup away from me and then said but not as I will, but as you will. If Jesus were God, what would be the point of that prayer?
(Id like to know what the trinity teaches with regards to who was in heaven when Jesus was on earth.)
How come Jesus said that no one knows the hour, not the angles in heaven, nor the son but only the father, if they are all co-equal. Besides he could have said, Only The Father and The Holy Ghost know, but he didnt.
Then there was the voice from heaven at his baptism, Matthew 3:17: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
How was that possible if Jesus was God?
How come whenever there were visions of the heavenly throne, by other prophets, only God and Jesus or the Lamb were seen? Never any mention of a third being?
How come the scriptures say that God is the head of the Christ as Christ is the head of the man and man head of the woman, if they are all co-equal?
How come Jesus said he had a God and a Father?
How come Jesus gave The Lords prayer or the Model prayer saying to let your name be hallowed or sanctified, set up higher than all others ? Whos name? Jesus? He always gave glory to his father.
Psalms 83:18: That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, (or YHWH) art the most high over all the earth. And Jesus knew that too.
I was just scratching the surface with my questions. Then he said to me You are looking into it too deeply. Just have faith and accept it. Eh? Thats like saying, Here, take these keys for that car, dont worry if you dont actually know how to drive it, just get in and off you go!!!
It means everlasting life, taking in knowledge, accurate knowledge of God and of the one he sent forth, Jesus Christ. My life depends upon it! How can I just accept it? Its not like Im buying a pair of shoes. Its a bit more important than that I think.
Anyhow, I could go on, believe it or not
If youre still reading, I bet youre glad you asked.
ThisShouldMakeSense said:Hi SoliDeoGloria,
Thanks for replying. Id like to start by apologizing for sounding disrespectful. ( Just to warn you, theres there quite a lot here )
What gets to me is the fact that I have spoken to several Trinitarians in the past and no matter how many scriptures I show them, they still dont see it.
I mean take for instance what I said about people needing to be humble. That is not a bad thing or a degrading term. It means being willing to accept that our beliefs may not be inline with those of the Bible and therefore Gods.
Take for example the rich young ruler who came to Jesus and said I obey the law, live up to the requirements, since childhood, but what more do I need to do to get everlasting life?
To which Jesus said One things missing. Sell your possessions, give to the poor, you will get treasure in heaven and be my follower. And then we read that the young ruler went away upset.
You see he, although no doubt a good man, a worshiper and a believer, wasnt humble enough to realise that he had to change his life and way of thinking. Make his sacrifice. He couldnt, his possessions held him back. So being humble is a condition of the heart.
And thats my point, so many people, NOT ALL, are not willing to look into their beliefs or way of life any further. (2 Tim. 4:3, 4)
Infact I spoke to an elderly lady who said No thank you Im perfectly happy! after I was willing to show her from the scriptures what the truth is. It makes me sad, to be honest.
Also, the reason I say that people blindly follow, rather than examine to see if the things are really so (Acts 17:11), is that I spoke to a Born Again Christian who stopped me in the street.
He was nice enough, but as I knew that he believes in the trinity, I thought Id first establish what his ideas about it were.Because, even amongst Trinitarians, beliefs vary.
So I asked him, Do you believe that The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are the same age, know the same thing, are the same person, are co-equal, none higher or better than the other, basically one. He said yes.
So then I said, well how come Col. 1:15 says that Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature? It says image of the invisible God, not that he is God, and that he is the first born of creation. The term firstborn always refers the eldest child in a family, (think back to the plagues on the Egyptians) as in this case.
By extension, the term should also be used in connection with The Father and the Holy Spirit. However, it isnt. Only Jesus is referred to that way.
Also Jesus never said that he was God, or The Father. (By the way, I am aware that some Trinitarians teach that when on earth, Jesus was inferior to his position as The Father or The Holy Ghost when I heaven.) If anything, the scriptures call him, amongst other things, The Son of God.
He never directed glory to himself, but always to his father. He said he never did anything of his own initiative, but of the one that sent him.
He came to do his fathers will, not his own. He prayed to his father on the night of his arrest, saying if possible to take this cup away from me and then said but not as I will, but as you will. If Jesus were God, what would be the point of that prayer?
(Id like to know what the trinity teaches with regards to who was in heaven when Jesus was on earth.)
How come Jesus said that no one knows the hour, not the angles in heaven, nor the son but only the father, if they are all co-equal. Besides he could have said, Only The Father and The Holy Ghost know, but he didnt.
Then there was the voice from heaven at his baptism, Matthew 3:17: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
How was that possible if Jesus was God?
How come whenever there were visions of the heavenly throne, by other prophets, only God and Jesus or the Lamb were seen? Never any mention of a third being?
How come the scriptures say that God is the head of the Christ as Christ is the head of the man and man head of the woman, if they are all co-equal?
How come Jesus said he had a God and a Father?
How come Jesus gave The Lords prayer or the Model prayer saying to let your name be hallowed or sanctified, set up higher than all others ? Whos name? Jesus? He always gave glory to his father.
Psalms 83:18: That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, (or YHWH) art the most high over all the earth. And Jesus knew that too.
I was just scratching the surface with my questions. Then he said to me You are looking into it too deeply. Just have faith and accept it. Eh? Thats like saying, Here, take these keys for that car, dont worry if you dont actually know how to drive it, just get in and off you go!!!
It means everlasting life, taking in knowledge, accurate knowledge of God and of the one he sent forth, Jesus Christ. My life depends upon it! How can I just accept it? Its not like Im buying a pair of shoes. Its a bit more important than that I think.
Anyhow, I could go on, believe it or not
If youre still reading, I bet youre glad you asked.
EnhancedSpirit
High Priestess
The word Trinity is not found any where in the bible.
The concept of the Trinity was created to try to describe God in terms that could be understood by man.
It has caused confusion because of the MISCONCEPTIONS passed down from generation to generation.
The true concept of the Trinity is this. When God first breathed life into man. The human body was incapable of housing all the 'aspects' of the Creator. So in his image we were created 'male and female', these are the first two of the Trinity, Father and Holy Ghost. But even that is not enough to define the creator. There is also the sum of those two - the son.
The Father, Mother, Child. Trinity - used to define the Creator.
The concept of the Trinity was created to try to describe God in terms that could be understood by man.
It has caused confusion because of the MISCONCEPTIONS passed down from generation to generation.
The true concept of the Trinity is this. When God first breathed life into man. The human body was incapable of housing all the 'aspects' of the Creator. So in his image we were created 'male and female', these are the first two of the Trinity, Father and Holy Ghost. But even that is not enough to define the creator. There is also the sum of those two - the son.
The Father, Mother, Child. Trinity - used to define the Creator.
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
ThisShouldMakeSense said:
Actually, while you may need someone to teach you HOW to drive, you don't have to understand how the brake system works or WHY you need fuel. In fact, you need to know very little about the whole car to operate one safely.
The problem with the "Trinity" lies with man's need to rename everything. You won't find the term in the Scriptures, so I don't use it to describe my beliefs.
Still, I don't see where the scriptures actively preach against it so I won't either!
The main point though, is your quest that you should correct any and all who believe differently from you on this. Why is that? Are there other topics that you hold this essential? Is the understanding or misunderstanding of the Trinity going to send someone to hell? Nope. Jesus never said "They will know you are my disciples if you don't believe in the Trinity" (or not). In the grand scheme of things, belief in the Trinity (or not) won't make much difference in our love for God.
I do have one suggestion for you though... don't be deceptive just to get people to read your thread. Your initial post looks as if it's an appeal for people to help you to understand the "Trinity". You failed to point out that your mind was already firmly made up and that you were really looking for a pulpit to speak from! :tsk: This is Trollish behaviour and should be avoided if you want people to take you seriously.
Take it from someone who has made the mistake more than once: Don't be a Troll. Be honest from the start and people will return in kind. Hopefully I have said this with enough humility for you!
Halcyon
Lord of the Badgers
Mew Katzpur, i'd suggest that anything you call Father would have to be male to keep the term grammatically correct - the most important kind of correct. If there are Christians who believe God is not male then they should really address It not as 'Father', but as 'Heavenly Parent Of As Yet Undetermined Gender', or just as God.
ThisShouldMakeSense
Active Member
hi Netdoc,
With regards to 'Is the understanding or misunderstanding of the Trinity going to send someone to hell? Nope.', actually yes and no. no, cos there is no hell and yes as in, your everlasting life depends upon knowing the truth about God. and it's not my point to correct any and all. they have to that themselves.
say you found out oneday that something you were doing for ages was actually harming you, would you carry on just cos you've been doing it for years?
Also, don't you think something as important as God's true identity is important. It says that God is a jealous God, that he demands exclusive devotion, look at the 10 commandments. anyhoo. i'll be back tomorrow, got to go.
and what are you on about enhanced spirit??
With regards to 'Is the understanding or misunderstanding of the Trinity going to send someone to hell? Nope.', actually yes and no. no, cos there is no hell and yes as in, your everlasting life depends upon knowing the truth about God. and it's not my point to correct any and all. they have to that themselves.
say you found out oneday that something you were doing for ages was actually harming you, would you carry on just cos you've been doing it for years?
Also, don't you think something as important as God's true identity is important. It says that God is a jealous God, that he demands exclusive devotion, look at the 10 commandments. anyhoo. i'll be back tomorrow, got to go.
and what are you on about enhanced spirit??