Could someone please explain the trinity?

[jimbob]

i used to have a clover as my avatar, which was explained by St. Patrick. the Holy Trinity is three persons in one, just like there are three leaves in a clover. they are all unique, but single, like three leaves, that make one leaf.

 

[Scuba Pete]

TSMS,

You can look at the Ten Commandments... I have it on good authority we only have two nowadays.

1) Love God
2) Love EVERYONE else

Everything else is just details.

As for "God's true Identity"... he has told us already. He "is". Nothing more and nothing less. The rest is (you guessed it): just details.

Will Rogers put it best: It's not the things in the Bible that I don't understand that disturb me."

 

[ThisShouldMakeSense]

Hi NetDoc,

yes, you are right about the two new commandments. but remember that those two encompass the pricipals of the mosaic law. ie, if you loved you neighbor, you wouldn't steal, envy, lie, murder, fornicate etc. same goes for loving God, you wouldn't blaspheme, worship Idols or other Gods (which is what the trinity is), lie, etc, either.

And remember too, the scripture says that God never changes. so the point about the commandment that says 'I am the LORD (or YHWH)...you should have no other god's before me.' etc, is that he wan't us to worship him alone, know who he is, what his purpose is, what we are here for etc, etc...

besides, the scripture says to love God with all you have, your whole mind, soul and strength etc. How can we do that if we direct it to someone else, be that jesus, the virgin mary, or anyone or anything else.
God is a title, like Doctor or Teacher. if you had a room full of god's and you shouted out 'God!', how many would turn around to you? if you had the specific name of God, you'd get somewhere, wouldn't you?

And, isn't it true that the finner things or details in life are what make life enjoyable? so i don't think your case can stand by sweeping the rest of the scriptures away as 'just details'. All scripture is inspired of God. you have to take it all incontext with the rest. don't be lukewarm, or you will be vomited out...

 

[Scuba Pete]

John 10:24 The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25 Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one." 31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" 33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God." 34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods' ? 35 If he called them `gods,' to whom the word of God came--and the Scripture cannot be broken-- 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, `I am God's Son'? 37 Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. NIV

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

John 10:30 I and the Father are one." 31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" 33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God." 34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods' ? 35 If he called them `gods,' to whom the word of God came--and the Scripture cannot be broken-- 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, `I am God's Son'? 37 Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. NIV

Jesus was saying that he is the son of God. And it had already been written that we are all sons (and daughters) of God. I am one with God, this does not make me a deity. Nor did it make Jesus a God.

 

[ThisShouldMakeSense]

thanks enhanced spirit! My point exactly. like i said, married people are called one flesh, but that doesn't make them one person. and besides, if he was God, he'd be contradicting himself by everything else he went on to say after that.

 

[Scuba Pete]

I would like to point out, that y'all are now arguing with the Scriptures... not me.

Jesus said "I and the Father are one."

He didn't say "You and the Father are one."

He did say the only way to the Father was through________________. (Fill in the blank)

He said repeatedly that to believe in __________ was to believe in the Father. (Fill in the blank)

He also contended that if you accept __________ you have also accepted the Father. (FIll in the blank)

BTW, those were really trick questions: they all have identical answers. I hope that didn't throw you!

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

I would like to point out, that y'all are now arguing with the Scriptures... not me.

Jesus said "I and the Father are one."

Then what does, this mean.
Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods' ? 35 If he called them `gods,' to whom the word of God came--and the Scripture cannot be broken-- 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world?

And how about this one?
Matthew 19:16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?" 17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

And this one?
Matthew 19:28 So Jesus said to them, "Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

[Scuba Pete]

You are the one arguing with the scriptures... I think it means just what it says. What do YOU think it means? Do you think that this invalidates John 10:30??? There seems to be no equivocation in that statement.

 

[ThisShouldMakeSense]

Hi netdoc
But he did say that he hoped that he and his deciples become one, just as he is one with his father...

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

I am not arguing with the scripture, but clarifying it. Just like Jesus tried to clarify the scripture for the Jews. I am not fighting what the bible says, I'm am arguing against the mis-interpretations.

Mark 10:45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

Matthew 19:16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?" 17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

Matthew 19:28 So Jesus said to them, "Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

[Scuba Pete]

MArk 10:45... Great scripture. This does not indicate the divinity of Jesus one way or the other.

Matthew 19:16 Jesus is actually making the point that he IS God.

Matthew 19:28, Again this does not address the divinity of Jesus.

Let's see how God and Jesus define themselves:

Exodus 3:14. God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: `I AM has sent me to you.'" NIV

John 8:56. Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."
57. "You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"
58. "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
59. At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds. NIV

But some people are used to arguing with sign posts, why shouldn't they also argue with scripture?

 

[Scuba Pete]

I guess that's why they wanted to stone him then!

Those guys should have read it the way you do... but I guess they didn't. Whoa, but they were THERE. This statement was offensive to them, for Jesus claimed to be the "I AM".

 

[ThisShouldMakeSense]

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Actually, in many other translations it reads 'i have been', 'i was', simply that he existed prior to that. also, it's not in capitol letters.​

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[Seconde]

"There are three persons in the Godhead; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one God, the same substance, equal in power and glory" - Westminister Shorter Catechism

3 in 1

Equal in power? If Jesus wasn't omnipresent, then that should mean neither is the father.

Same substance? As in made of the same thing? Does that mean the father is made of complex carbohydrates, etc?

 

[z|x]

The trinity is like a family. A father, mother and son. They can be called differently but they can also be called by their surname ie all of them can be called by the same name as well as different names at the same time. They can do different things.

 

[SoliDeoGloria]

I mean take for instance what I said about people needing to be humble. That is not a bad thing or a degrading term.

The thing is that when you do that, you are affirming that these people are in need of humbling because they are being what some would call a pompous (censored). Therefore people who don't think of themselves as being too pridefull may take offense to this statement.

So I asked him, Do you believe that The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are the same age, know the same thing, are the same person, are co-equal, none higher or better than the other, basically one. He said yes.

Hmmmmmm.Just in case you wanted to know I would've answered that neither of them have an age since neither of them have a beginning(John 8-58). As far as knowing the same thing goes, I would've stated yes and my reasoning would've been that while Jesus did not know the time of His return in Mark 13:32, that could be explained by His voluntary acceptance of the humble form and likeness of a man (Phil.2:7) and after His resurrection He does not include himself as not knowing (Acts 1:6-7).They are not the same person. If they were, it would not be by definition a trinity, but rather a unity manifested in three different ways. On top of that, if they were the same person, then why would they manifest themselves as three distinct "persons" in Matt.3:16-17? They are not "co-equal" (depending on how you are defining that term) being as how Jesus is subordinate relationally (1 Cor.11;3;15:28) but not in essence (John 10:30). As far as none "higher or better than the other" goes, I would have to ask what exactly you mean by that. To "basically one", I would answer essentially one.

So then I said, well how come Col. 1:15 says that Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature? It says image of the invisible God, not that he is God, and that he is the first born of creation. The term firstborn always refers the eldest child in a family, (think back to the plagues on the Egyptians) as in this case.By extension, the term should also be used in connection with The Father and the Holy Spirit. However, it isn’t. Only Jesus is referred to that way.

So, If Jesus is not God and just the image of the invisible God as you say , then what, exactly, is it supposed to mean by using the term "image of the invisible God"? As far as being the "firstborn of every creature goes", Since He is presented as the Son and principle heir of the Father in verses 12-14, the term "firstborn" is, in context, meaning "heir" (Gen.43:33; 48:14-20; Ex.4:22; 1Chron.5:1-3; Psa.89:27; Jer.31:9). It should also be noted that Col.1:16 speaks of Jesus as the creator rather than creature.

He never directed glory to himself, but always to his father.

And yet, He prayed that the Father would glorify Him with that same glory (John 17:1,5).

He never directed glory to himself, but always to his father. He said he never did anything of his own initiative, but of the one that sent him. He came to do his father’s will, not his own.

Do you know of any other human being in the Bible that could honestly make or made that claim? All that is is an affirmation that Jesus was at least one with the father in will.

He prayed to his father on the night of his arrest, saying if possible to ‘take this cup away from me’ and then said ‘but not as I will, but as you will.’ If Jesus were God, what would be the point of that prayer?

The point is that Jesus had taken on the likeness of of a man (Col.2:7; Rom 8:3; 1Tim.3:16; John 1:14) and therefore had to deal with issues that men had to deal with like temptation, etc. With that being noted, Let me turn the question back on you.If Jesus was just a mere man, what was the point of emphasizing the fact that he was tempted (Matt.4; Mark1:12; Luke 4, Heb. 2:18) since we already know that all men are tempted?

(I’d like to know what the trinity teaches with regards to who was in heaven when Jesus was on earth.)

it's called "omnipressence":

*** The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 ***
Omnipresence n.


Presence in every place at the same time; unbounded or
universal presence; ubiquity.
[1913 Webster]

And the basis for it can be found in Ps.139:7-10.

Then there was the voice from heaven at his baptism, Matthew 3:17: ‘And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.’ How was that possible if Jesus was God? How come whenever there were visions of the heavenly throne, by other prophets, only God and Jesus or the Lamb were seen? Never any mention of a third being?

Why did you conveniently leave out the pressence of a "third being" in your quotation of Matt. ch.3? The presence of Jesus (verse 16-"and after being baptized Jesus..), presence of The Holy Spirit (verse 16-"and behold, the Heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God..) , & the presence of the Father (refer to your quotation above) are all three there and since this is actually taken from the eyes of John the Baptist who was considered a prophet in his time, It would seem that you answered your own question, but just in case all three "beings" are not clearly seen by you let's go to another spot. In John 14:16-17 all three are clearly seen. Verse 16 reads: "And I(Jesus is speaking here) will ask the Father(Father God) and he will give you another Helper (Holy Spirit), which is confirmed by verse 17: "that is the Spirit of truth".

How come the scriptures say that God is the head of the Christ as Christ is the head of the man and man head of the woman, if they are all co-equal?

I don't know of any Christian Doctrine that states that Christ, man, and woman are "all co-equal" with God.

How come Jesus said he had a God and a Father?

Because he is still man as well as God. Note the distinction between "My God and "your God in John 20:17 (i.e., Jesus never speaks of "our God" including himself with the disciples)

How come Jesus gave The Lord’s prayer or the Model prayer saying to let your name be hallowed or sanctified, set up higher than all others ? Who’s name? Jesus’? He always gave glory to his father.
Psalms 83:18: That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, (or YHWH) art the most high over all the earth. And Jesus knew that too.

And yet while still knowing this, Jesus asked JEHOVAH, (or YHWH) to give Him "together with Thyself(JEHOVAH, (or YHWH), Father(JEHOVAH, (or YHWH)" the glory "I (Jesus) had with thee( JEHOVAH, (or YHWH) before the world was.(John 17:5)

I was just scratching the surface with my questions. Then he said to me ‘You are looking into it too deeply.

Well, you big studmuffin, you. You go ahead and feel free to get as "too deeply" as your little heart desires. I promise that I won't chastise you for it.

It means everlasting life, taking in knowledge, accurate knowledge of God and of the one he sent forth, Jesus Christ. My life depends upon it! How can I just accept it? It’s not like I’m buying a pair of shoes. It’s a bit more important than that I think.

I coulnd't agree more (2 Tim.2:15), but something could be said for the importance of Faith when it comes to salvation (Eph. 2:8-9).

Anyhow, I could go on, believe it or not…

If you're anything like me, I don't doubt it

BTW, so I don't come across as rude: Hi ThisShouldMakeSense

Sincerely,
SoliDeoGloria

 

[ThisShouldMakeSense]

(All paragraphs in inverted comas are quoting SoliDeoGloria)

'The thing is that when you do that, you are affirming that these people are in need of humbling because they are being what some would call a pompous (censored). Therefore people who don't think of themselves as being too pridefull may take offence to this statement.'

Well, they shouldn't. I once played tennis against a friend and realised that i wasn't as good as i thought i was, so it was humbling for me to realise that.

‘Hmmmmmm. Just in case you wanted to know I would've answered that neither of them have an age since neither of them have a beginning'
(John 8-58).'

That verse would make no sense, in the way you think of it. It’s like he said 'Truly i tell you, before Abraham was, God.' if I AM is a description or name for God, then that is house the sentence would be taken, which makes no sense. The New Living Translation renders it more appropriately as:
Jesus answered, "The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!' which is the true meaning of the sentence. And makes sense.

'As far as knowing the same thing goes, I would've stated yes and my reasoning would've been that while Jesus did not know the time of His return in Mark 13:32, that could be explained by His voluntary acceptance of the humble form and likeness of a man.'

Yes, that could be explained that way, but it isn't.

'and after His resurrection He does not include himself as not knowing (Acts 1:6-7).'

Yes, but it could be said that he simply was repeating what he said in Mark 13:32. because he didn't say that he knew the time now either.

'They are not the same person. If they were, it would not be by definition a trinity, but rather a unity manifested in three different ways. On top of that, if they were the same person, then why would they manifest themselves as three distinct "persons" in Matt.3: 16-17?'

My point exactly. And yet that is what the trinity teaches. Look at the Athanasian Creed:
5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.

7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.

8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.

9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.

11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.

12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.

13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.

14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.

15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;

16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

'They are not "co-equal" (depending on how you are defining that term) being as how Jesus is subordinate relationally (1 Cor.11;3)'

But there is one thing I want you to know: A man is responsible to Christ, a woman is responsible to her husband, and Christ is responsible to God. So, bearing this in mind, how can the Athanasian Creed say that? How can Jesus be responsible to himself in that context of that scripture?

';15:28) but not in essence (John 10:30). As far as none "higher or better than the other" goes, I would have to ask what exactly you mean by that.'

What I mean is, is one superior in anyway to the other? The creed says that they are each almighty. I wanted to know if that is what he believed?


'So, If Jesus is not God and just the image of the invisible God as you say, then what, exactly, is it supposed to mean by using the term "image of the invisible God"? Do you know of any other human being in the Bible that could honestly make or made that claim? All that is, is an affirmation that Jesus was at least one with the father in will.'

Exactly, one in will. Not person. And have you ever had someone say to you, or someone you know, 'wow, he's the image of his dad!' or 'Isn't she the image of her mother?' being the image of someone doesn't make one the same person. You might display similar qualities, traits or even looks. However, being like some one, isn't being them.

‘It should also be noted that Col.1:16 speaks of Jesus as the creator rather than creature.’

Colossians 1:16 (English Standard Version)
For by[a] him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him.
Footnotes:
a. Colossians 1:16 That is, by means of; or in

Or (New Living Translation)
Christ is the one through whom God created everything in heaven and earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can't see--kings, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities. Everything has been created through him and for him.

‘And yet, He prayed that the Father would glorify Him with that same glory (John 17:1,5).’

Let’s see shall we?
John 17 (New Living Translation)

1When Jesus had finished saying all these things, he looked up to heaven and said, "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son so he can give glory back to you. 2For you have given him authority over everyone in all the earth. He gives eternal life to each one you have given him. 3And this is the way to have eternal life--to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, (No mention of the Holy Spirit…) the one you sent to earth. 4I brought glory to you here on earth by doing everything you told me to do. 5And now, Father, bring me into the glory we shared before the world began.

6"I have told these men about you. They were in the world, but then you gave them to me. Actually, they were always yours, and you gave them to me; and they have kept your word. 7Now they know that everything I have is a gift from you, 8 for I have passed on to them the words you gave me; and they accepted them and know that I came from you, and they believe you sent me.

How you can get anything other that what it says out of these verses, I don’t know…

'The point is that Jesus had taken on the likeness of a man and therefore had to deal with issues that men had to deal with like temptation, etc. With that being noted, Let me turn the question back on you. If Jesus was just a mere man, what was the point of emphasizing the fact that he was tempted since we already know that all men are tempted?'


I didn’t say that he was just a ‘mere man’, like the rest of us. He was a perfect man, But still open to the needs of men, i.e. hunger, tiredness etc. But obviously he was not like us, cos of everything he did, who he was etc, etc…

‘Why did you conveniently leave out the presence of a "third being" in your quotation of Matt. ch.3? The presence of Jesus (verse 16-"and after being baptized Jesus..), presence of The Holy Spirit (verse 16-"and behold, the Heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God..) , & the presence of the Father (refer to your quotation above) are all three there and since this is actually taken from the eyes of John the Baptist who was considered a prophet in his time, It would seem that you answered your own question, but just in case all three "beings" are not clearly seen by you let's go to another spot. In John 14:16-17 all three are clearly seen. Verse 16 reads: "And I(Jesus is speaking here) will ask the Father(Father God) and he will give you another Helper (Holy Spirit), which is confirmed by verse 17: "that is the Spirit of truth".”

I didn’t leave it out conveniently. Yes, the Holy Spirit descended in the form of a dove. And it was at this point that the heavens were opened up to Jesus. God poured out his holy spirit upon his Son, just like it was poured out at Pentecost in the upper room. He became filled with Holy Spirit. (Do you know, I think there is confusion about what exactly we mean and believe about God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.)


‘I don't know of any Christian Doctrine that states that Christ, man, and woman are "all co-equal" with God.’

Neither do I!! There is a hierarchy. It goes like this:
1. GOD (YHWH)
2. Jesus
3. Man
4. Woman

Man is not equal with woman 100% and vice versa, Jesus is not 100% equal with God, otherwise, what would be the point of the scriptures about headship?

‘Note the distinction between "My God and "your God in John 20:17 (i.e., Jesus never speaks of "our God" including himself with the disciples)’

So is he saying that the God of his disciples is different from his God? I thought they worshipped the same one…

‘And yet while still knowing this, Jesus asked JEHOVAH, (or YHWH) to give Him "together with Thyself(JEHOVAH, (or YHWH), Father(JEHOVAH, (or YHWH)" the glory "I (Jesus) had with thee( JEHOVAH, (or YHWH) before the world was.(John 17:5)’

John 17:5 (Worldwide English (New Testament)
So now, Father, let my name be great with you. Make my name as great as it was when I was with you before the world was made.

John 17:5 (Amplified Bible)
5And now, Father, glorify Me along with Yourself and restore Me to such majesty and honor in Your presence as I had with You before the world existed.

John 17:5 (New Life Version)
5Now, Father, honor Me with the honor I had with You before the world was made.

John 17:5 (Contemporary English Version)
5Now, Father, give me back the glory that I had with you before the world was created.


It looks more like he is requesting to be restored back to his former glory. That his father would look at him how he used to look at him. Not that he wanted equal glory once back in heaven. Just to have his previous glory restored.

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

That which is known as the Godhead is first seen in Genesis1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

Jesus, the man, was in tune with God from the moment of his birth. This is something all the rest of us have to come to on our own. We are given the choice of finding enlightenment. We have the choice to remain as animals, just here to survive our stay on earth, or to become enlightened beings. But we are all God's children. The Trinity is a way to describe God in a way that is condusive to our experience. The misconception is that Jesus(of the body) is himself a God, instead of 'made in the image of God' just like us.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

 

[timeguest]

John 5-7 "In the beginning was the Word the Word was with God and the Word was God . The Word became flesh and dwelt amoung us." John states these three are one. The Word that was with God was God and the Word became flesh. Jesus prayed to be glorified with the Glory he had with the Father in the beginning before the World was. The Word that was made flesh was glorified in the Spirit. The Holy Ghost is the Glorified Word of the Father. These three are one expression of the Glory of God.