Couldn't have said it better myself...

[Brian2]

So the offender gets to be forgiven by God, and the victim gets nothing.

As I said, we are all offenders at some time in our lives and we are all offered forgiveness.

 

[Brian2]

But he got better

I presume you mean that Jesus came back to life.
Yes Jesus came back to life. He did not deserve to die because He is sinless. That would have been unfair for Jesus to die forever. God accepted His giving of His life when He was murdered as a sin offering (as in the OT Temple sacrificial law) but that does not mean that He had to stay dead.
Sounds silly to say that it was wrong for there to be a human sacrifice and also wrong that the human sacrifice rose from the dead. One of the main prophecies about Jesus tells us of His suffering and death and subsequent resurrection to see His children.

Isa 53:10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.

 

[We Never Know]

No, that simply can't be, because God is pro-life and he is against killing babies, or at least according to pro-life Christians anyway.

Don't forget got sent the angel of death to kill the first born.

The angel of death is god's messenger who brings death to human beings.

So one can say god didn't kill them. He subs it out.

 

[Brian2]

The reason I posted this quote is because you are epitomizing it here.

I don't think it's moral to scapegoat our actions and responsibilities onto someone else. We are responsible for our own actions in this life, and we are responsible for atoning to those we have wronged. What good does it do a victim if the perp is forgiven by some third party and gets to move on with a clean slate?

Jesus did what we, as perps, could not do. We die for our own sins and we all stay dead unless someone who has not sinned can save us through their death which is a substitution for our death.
We ARE responsible for our own actions and so that is why we should die for them but God does not want us to.
We as perps can be forgiven and we as victims can learn to forgive others who have wronged us.
We all get to move on.
You don't seem to realise that we are all perps and we are all victims also at some point.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Don't forget got sent the angel of death to kill the first born.

The angel of death is god's messenger who brings death to human beings.

So one can say god didn't kill them. He subs it out.

Hey!!! I had nothing to do with that!!

 

[Brian2]

Yeah, no one should see themselves as a bad person because of an ancient book that has a very wrong idea on how to tell if a woman is a virgin or not. Unless they are actually harming someone they aren't a bad person, no reason to degrade or lower themselves.

We are all people who are not morally perfect. Whether we say that is being a bad person or not is up to us.
Our moral imperfection however in the face of God's perfection and our need to not mess up the Kingdom of God with our moral imperfection, means that we should repent.

 

[Subduction Zone]

We are all people who are not morally perfect. Whether we say that is being a bad person or not is up to us.
Our moral imperfection however in the face of God's perfection and our need to not mess up the Kingdom of God with our moral imperfection, means that we should repent.

What makes you think that the God of the Bible has moral perfection? I can see quite a few flaws in that supposed perfection.

 

[Brian2]

I understand that is an important part of your faith, but I have to ask why God sent many prophets in the OT, when he could have sent such a saviour in the first place?
It just doesn't sit right with me.

The prophets spoke of the Messiah otherwise He would be just someone else who died an unjust death.

I love Jesus.
If people listen to what he taught, the world is a better place.
..but I don't confine myself to one source of knowledge. i.e. the Bible canon
God, the Most High, guides whomsoever He wills.

Doing what Jesus said in a moral sense is fantastic. Hearing what He told us He was going to do to take away our sins is even better.

 

[Brian2]

Don't forget got sent the angel of death to kill the first born.

The angel of death is god's messenger who brings death to human beings.

So one can say god didn't kill them. He subs it out.

No, He killed them.

 

[Brian2]

What makes you think that the God of the Bible has moral perfection? I can see quite a few flaws in that supposed perfection.

I see it through faith.
I also tend to give God the benefit of the doubt and try to see Him as more than just another human being. He is our creator and the one who owns everything and says in the end how it is all going to be and works to that end with all authority to do so, but in the end, being fair and just to all.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I see it through faith.
I also tend to give God the benefit of the doubt and try to see Him as more than just another human being. He is our creator and the one who owns everything and says in the end how it is all going to be and works to that end with all authority to do so, but in the end, being fair and just to all.

Faith is just believing what one wants to believe, even if the Bible contradicts that "faith". Which is odd because we know that some of the stories of the Bible never happened and yet you defend some of those stories such as the Noah's Ark myth.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

We are all people who are not morally perfect. Whether we say that is being a bad person or not is up to us.
Our moral imperfection however in the face of God's perfection and our need to not mess up the Kingdom of God with our moral imperfection, means that we should repent.

What is moral imperfection?

 

[Heyo]

That's descriptive, not prescriptive.

It isn't that you don't have a set of governing ideas that your ethics flow from, its that you don't have any argument which grants compelling power to your ethics. There is nothing, even when the whole of it is granted, that provides a foundation for the necessity of those ethics.

It has the highest form of authority possible: it works. Something that evolved has proved to be beneficial to a species.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

It's a once off by a willing participant to avoid the death of millions of people.

So what?

It was not a sacrifice by anyone it was an evil act of injustice and murder by the political and religious leaders. It was a murder that God accepted as a sacrifice because Jesus could have avoided it by stepping back from speaking the truth in the place where God wanted Him to and to those God wanted Him to but He did it even though He knew it would mean that they would kill Him.
God accepted it as a sin offering because Jesus was a lamb without blemish as the Temple required, a sinless man in symbology.

This doesn't change anything about any of the points I made.
No matter how much you try to spin it, to the point of even saying that it wasn't a "sacrifice" (which literally goes against christian doctrine), it remains what it is: punishing a scapegoat to absolve the guilty of their own guilt / responsability.

It's as immoral and unjust as it gets.

Not so much a scape goat because it was agreed upon millions of years earlier as a necessary thing to unite a broken creation in love and under one person.

This contradicts what you said earlier, that it wasn't a "planned sacrifice".
Now you are saying it was?

The statement that this was planned millions of years ago is absurd by itself, and it makes the supposed event even more absurd then it already was.

Yes well repentance is part of acceptance of the gospel and repentance means picking up your bottom and acting like it.

If that were the case, then
1. belief would be irrelevant
and
2. there would be no need for this "sacrifice" and / or "savior".

Neither of these points are necessary to repent your wrong doings and make ammense for them.
Not only are they not necessary, they are in fact utterly irrelevant.

Paying for what you have done is something that you cannot afford however, it required God to pay for it Himself in Jesus.

Absurd, immoral and unjust.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I can't see why he is saying that without further explanation.

"Original sin".

I shouldn't have to explain further.

Why do you say it is an immoral deal?

Imagine a serial killer standing trial.
The judge condemns him to the electric chair and then says "But I'll tell you what.... Instead of killing you, I'll kill my son here. And if you accept his sacrifice as a punishment for YOUR sins and repent from killing dozens of people, not only do you get your freedom back, but I will put you in a paradise in a golden palace where you would enjoy eternal bliss instead. Do you accept and repent?"

Would you, as a parent of one of his victims, think justice would be served if the dude answers "yes" and then gets his golden palace in some paradise island where he can live carefree? Would you think this would be a moral ruling by the judge?





(You may start your silly special pleading argument now about how there are "different rules" for a god that doesn't apply to a "judge" in a court.)

People have been immoral but God loves them and wants them to turn from immoral ways. Jesus did what needed to be done it seems.

Killing an innocent man has no bearing on the immoral ways of other people and most certainly not on the crimes those people have committed.

Look up. There's the point. Woosh.

Satan the one who tempted Adam and Eve initially has been condemned but God could not just let humanity off the hook for our deeds, that would be unfair so Jesus had to come and take our place in suffering and dying for our sins.

Right, and torturing and killing an innocent person to "let people of the hook" IS fair, right?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The Bible does not say that babies are guilty of anything. But we know that as we get older we all become guilty of things.

original sin.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Our moral imperfection however in the face of God's perfection

What moral foundation do you use to conclude that the christian god of the bible is "morally perfect"?

Can you walk me through the moral argument that ends up in that conclusion?

 

[muhammad_isa]

The prophets spoke of the Messiah otherwise He would be just someone else who died an unjust death

That doesn't really answer the question as to why Jesus wasn't sent to the world to "take away our sins" in the first place..

Isn't it more coherent that the Prophets before him were also sent to "take away our sins" ?

Isn't it all down to interpretation, as is "Father" and "Son" and so forth?

 

[Brian2]

Faith is just believing what one wants to believe, even if the Bible contradicts that "faith". Which is odd because we know that some of the stories of the Bible never happened and yet you defend some of those stories such as the Noah's Ark myth.

I do understand the flood story probably differently than you do, and that understanding is a scientific possibility as well as a Hebrew translation possibility.
So the Bible does not contradict my belief in the flood.
But you say that the flood did not happen even if it could have happened scientifically with a different understanding of the story. So your belief needs more faith than mine I would say, and if not more, it is a similar type of belief and is not scientific.

 

[Brian2]

What is moral imperfection?

We do what is against the teaching of love in the gospels.