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Courage of the White Flag

Yerda

Yerda

Veteran Member
Saint Frankenstein said:
Fair enough, but your view there still strikes me as very American, so it's surprising that you're not.
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As I see it, I'm broadly in line with European opinion and very much in line with Scottish public sympathy for the victims of aggression. I'm not sure what seems particularly American about what I've said, but I'm glad to hear that my opinion is shared over the Atlantic.

You made it seem like I have no idea of culture of heritage, which as well as being insulting to me, is a bit slanderous towards your fellow Americans. Ultimately, however, the point is that there is nothing contained within culture or heritage that excuses wars of aggression or the violent annexation of regions of a neighbouring country. You can insult me, but we have international law for a reason.

I understand the impulse towards negotiation. An unjust peace is generally preferable to a just war, imo. However, it should be upto Ukraine to decide how it responds to the war crimes being perpetrated against it. The calls for Ukraine to lie down to the kleptocrat psychos in the Russian administration are either wildly naive or thoroughly disingenuous. What guarantee would there be that we wouldn't be back here in 12 months? Will Russia strip away a new part of Ukraine every time they aren't happy with Ukraine? Should they cede their sovereignty altogether because the lunatics running Russia have decided Ukraine actually belongs to them?

Alternatively, we could point out that Russia could end this monstrous war and support the resistance against evil.

Saint Frankenstein said:
Actually, I've been very antiwar since the 2000s due to the disgusting Bush admin. I vote for whoever the most antiwar candidate is. I really screwed up voting for Obama for the second time and Hillary in 2016. I am considering voting Green this time. So don't give me that nonsense. Both "right" and "left" are trash and mean nothing, really.
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I was active in antiwar politics for a few years from around the same time. I still think that several members of the Bush and Blair governments should be tried for war crimes. I can see your bind in regards to voting - both US parties are always warring. I've been voting Green for the past few years, also.

Left and right aren't precise terms but they are meaningful. There are broad patterns and low resolution impressions we can take when a person, group, or movement identifies as left, right, centrist etc. Not a perfect way to categorise political orientation, sure, but not completely useless.
 
Mock Turtle

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Regiomontanus said:
I would argue that demonizing your enemy, instead of praying for them and trying to understand them, is counterproductive. Russia views Ukraine in a way I do not think you appreciate. Unfortunately, that is also the case with Biden, among others, IMHO.
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Like being a bit selective over its history, and that of Russia itself perhaps?
 
Jayhawker Soule

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Yerda said:
An unjust peace is generally preferable to a just war, imo.
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I understand your point, but it seems a bit shallow unless and until we first acknowledge that

an "unjust peace" is generally an oxymoron,​

and only then determine where to stand.

Permit me to ask the following. Given:

The war in Europe split the American people into two camps: non-interventionists and interventionists. The two sides argued over America's involvement in this World War II. The basic principle of the interventionist argument was fear of German invasion. One of the rhetorical criticisms of interventionism was that it was driven by the so-called merchants of death - businesses who had profited from World War I lobbying for involvement in order to profit from another large war. By the summer of 1940, France suffered a stunning defeat by Germans, and Britain was the only democratic enemy of Germany.[19][20] In a 1940 speech, Roosevelt argued, "Some, indeed, still hold to the now somewhat obvious delusion that we … can safely permit the United States to become a lone island … in a world dominated by the philosophy of force."[21] [source]​

Would you have stood with the non-interventionists?
 
Yerda

Yerda

Veteran Member
Jayhawker Soule said:
I understand your point, but it seems a bit shallow unless and until we first acknowledge that

an "unjust peace" is generally an oxymoron,​

and only then determine where to stand.

Permit me to ask the following. Given:

The war in Europe split the American people into two camps: non-interventionists and interventionists. The two sides argued over America's involvement in this World War II. The basic principle of the interventionist argument was fear of German invasion. One of the rhetorical criticisms of interventionism was that it was driven by the so-called merchants of death - businesses who had profited from World War I lobbying for involvement in order to profit from another large war. By the summer of 1940, France suffered a stunning defeat by Germans, and Britain was the only democratic enemy of Germany.[19][20] In a 1940 speech, Roosevelt argued, "Some, indeed, still hold to the now somewhat obvious delusion that we … can safely permit the United States to become a lone island … in a world dominated by the philosophy of force."[21] [source]​

Would you have stood with the non-interventionists?
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No.

I'm a socialist. I think I would have supported intervention against the fascists earlier. In Spain, for instance.
 
Kathryn

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Didn't CS Lewis say "If war is ever lawful, then peace is sometimes sinful"? Anyway, food for thought.
 
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