Covid Origin

[Rival]

The implication of the guy's argument, per the above summary, is that we should somehow wait for the pandemic to end before rolling out mass vaccination. As irresponsible as that is, it is also against what health authorities currently recommend. You can find fringe (and yes, such an opinion is indeed fringe in the scientific community) opinions in almost any field. That doesn't mean they're correct, responsible, or reasonable.

That's why I said listen to him. Listen and make up your own mind.

Bet no-one will.

 

[Debater Slayer]

It's starting to sound an awful lot like 'critical thinking' is believing what everyone else believes. I thought I'm meant to use my brain and come to my own conclusions.

They said cite the WHO. So I cited the WHO. They didn't like it.
They said cite the CDC. So I cited them. They didn't like it.
They said cite scientists. So I cited them. They didn't like it.

You didn't cite the consensus view of the WHO, CDC, or scientific community in general; only outliers that contradict such.

And I'm not sure what you mean by "what everyone else believes." Last I checked, many people still believed in misinformation and pseudoscientific statements about different aspects of the pandemic. Coming to one's own conclusions isn't a good MO when it comes to fields that require expert knowledge to assess the facts and form a conclusion based on them. Without sufficient knowledge, "forming one's own conclusions" becomes guesswork at best.

And apparently now China is a bastion of truth. I'm not so sure what's so controversial about a lab leak. They were doing gain of function research in a Wuhan lab, they were researching virii, they were funded partially by western scientists who would have to cover their behinds if anything bad happened. An accidental leak from a laboratory is not unheard of.

As I said, I'm focusing on the statements about vaccination, not the leak or lack thereof.

 

[stvdv]

People should listen to scientific consensus

Generalizing here is wrong
It's just your opinion

not opinions of outliers who contradict what every health authority has stated so far.

I rather keep an open mind
Of course you are free not to, I won't mind nor judge

It's dangerously bizarre, to say the least.

Again, just your opinion, which IMO is bizarre. I would not call it dangerous though

 

[Debater Slayer]

That's why I said listen to him. Listen and make up your own mind.

Bet no-one will.

Make up my own mind about a scientifically evidenced issue? How, exactly? Facts don't care what I think. I wish the virus weren't as likely to infect or harm/kill people as health authorities have clarified it is, but facts don't change based on my wishes. It is what it is.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Generalizing here is wrong
It's just your opinion

It's my opinion that people should listen to scientific consensus, yes. I know not everyone respects said consensus, however.

I rather keep an open mind
Of course you are free not to, I won't mind nor judge

I'm keeping an open mind to evidence and expert consensus. If new evidence came out tomorrow and experts agreed it pointed to X or Y conclusion, I would definitely be open to that. Not to some random opinion on the Internet about a global pandemic, though.

 

[stvdv]

It's my opinion that people should listen to scientific consensus, yes. I know not everyone respects said consensus, however.



I'm keeping an open mind to evidence and expert consensus. If new evidence came out tomorrow and experts agreed it pointed to X or Y conclusion, I would definitely be open to that. Not to some random opinion on the Internet about a global pandemic, though.

Yes, I got that impression, hence my reply

 

[Rival]

Make up my own mind about a scientifically evidenced issue? How, exactly? Facts don't care what I think. I wish the virus weren't as likely to infect or harm/kill people as health authorities have clarified it is, but facts don't change based on my wishes. It is what it is.

It's not as 'evidenced' as some think.

Here's another interview of an MD no-one will watch. He taught all about this stuff to university students and I guess no-one wants to listen to him either, but I'll put it out there for those who will.

• Member of the Collaborative Research Centres of the German Research Foundation "Proteins as Tools in Biology" at the University of Giessen (1987-1990),

• Deputy Spokesperson of the Collaborative Research Center "Immunopathogenesis" (1990-1999)

• Spokesperson of the Collaborative Research Center "490 Infection and Persistence in Infections" in Mainz (2000-2011).[6]

• Co-founder and board member of the Association of Physicians and Scientists for Health, Freedom and Democracy, which was founded in May 2020 and lost its non-profit status in October 2020.[13] The purpose of the association is to take action against the government’s measures to contain the corona pandemic.[9]

 

[stvdv]

You are forgetting nPeace is on RF.
PM me if you don't want to share here. I'd love to hear.

Thanks, I appreciate it

I would like to share my opinion here, but I do not like to be punished for it

Anyway, within 3 years the real not so nice truth will be known I think.

 

[Debater Slayer]

It's not as 'evidenced' as some think.

Here's another interview of an MD no-one will watch. He taught all about this stuff to university students and I guess no-one wants to listen to him either, but I'll put it out there for those who will.

• Member of the Collaborative Research Centres of the German Research Foundation "Proteins as Tools in Biology" at the University of Giessen (1987-1990),

• Deputy Spokesperson of the Collaborative Research Center "Immunopathogenesis" (1990-1999)

• Spokesperson of the Collaborative Research Center "490 Infection and Persistence in Infections" in Mainz (2000-2011).[6]

• Co-founder and board member of the Association of Physicians and Scientists for Health, Freedom and Democracy, which was founded in May 2020 and lost its non-profit status in October 2020.[13] The purpose of the association is to take action against the government’s measures to contain the corona pandemic.[9]

I'm getting no sound when he speaks. Does this happen on your end too?

And the video description makes me suspect he overstates the risk of the blood clots, which are currently not even an issue for most vaccines anyway and only an extremely improbable one for a couple of them.

 

[Rival]

I'm getting no sound when he speaks. Does this happen on your end too?

No, he's been censored by some. I don't know why. He's a legitimate biologist who taught in a German uni. Try switching to another country if you have a VPN.

 

[Debater Slayer]

No, he's been censored by some. I don't know why. He's a legitimate biologist who taught in a German uni. Try switching to another country if you have a VPN.

I can see why he would be censored if he used YouTube to spread dangerous misinformation/fringe opinions about scientific issues, but I'll give the video a try later when I'm on a PC and can access my VPN.

 

[nPeace]

Thanks, I appreciate it

I would like to share my opinion here, but I do not like to be punished for it

Anyway, within 3 years the real not so nice truth will be known I think.

So you are not sharing.

Who will punish you? If it's not your master, then would you have anything to worry about?
Why did you arouse my curiosity?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

But I take with a pinch of salt the assertions that it can't have been simply from a natural source.

I'm not too surprised given how hard of a time Americans tend to have with accepting evolution.

 

[InChrist]

He didn't ask a question. He made several declarative statements that were demonstrably incorrect, as he does and admits to doing.

He says that healthy young people shouldn't get vaccinated, which is against health guidelines because young healthy people are the number one spreaders and the vaccine lowers transmission rates (doesn't stop it but does lower it).
And also because even young healthy people can still get sick and injured or killed by covid, but more likely they're going to get other people sick and injured from covid unnecessarily.

Yes, it appears you are correct, he wasn’t simply asking a question. I really wasn’t familiar with Joe Rogan before this incident in the news.

 

[exchemist]

I think both those possibilities are reasonable. I don’t know about the genetically modified assertion, but from what I understand there was gain of function research going on at the Wuhan lab.

It's true that lab has carried out gain of function work in the past. However (i) there is no evidence this was the case for SARS-CoV-2, (ii) gain of function programmes are strictly controlled and audited, so it would be hard for Wuhan to have run such a programme without anyone knowing or someone blowing the whistle on it, and (iii) it is absolutely normal for viruses to cross species barriers from the wild, as happened with the original SARS, with MERS and with annual 'flu'.

So it remains an unlikely and unevidenced speculation. However it is constantly talked up, for purely political reasons, by the Right in the USA.

More here: On the origins of SARS-CoV-2

 

[nPeace]

I'm not too surprised given how hard of a time Americans tend to have with accepting evolution.

I was tempted to say. "Oh, come off it. Nobody denies evolution. It's the evolution theory that more than half the world has a problem with. The one that scientists don't even agree on." ...but then I said to myself, "nPeace, behave yourself."
Don't curse now.

 

[Wandering Monk]

It's not as 'evidenced' as some think.

Here's another interview of an MD no-one will watch. He taught all about this stuff to university students and I guess no-one wants to listen to him either, but I'll put it out there for those who will.

• Member of the Collaborative Research Centres of the German Research Foundation "Proteins as Tools in Biology" at the University of Giessen (1987-1990),

• Deputy Spokesperson of the Collaborative Research Center "Immunopathogenesis" (1990-1999)

• Spokesperson of the Collaborative Research Center "490 Infection and Persistence in Infections" in Mainz (2000-2011).[6]

• Co-founder and board member of the Association of Physicians and Scientists for Health, Freedom and Democracy, which was founded in May 2020 and lost its non-profit status in October 2020.[13] The purpose of the association is to take action against the government’s measures to contain the corona pandemic.[9]

Sucharit Bhakdi - Wikipedia

 

[exchemist]

It's not as 'evidenced' as some think.

Here's another interview of an MD no-one will watch. He taught all about this stuff to university students and I guess no-one wants to listen to him either, but I'll put it out there for those who will.

• Member of the Collaborative Research Centres of the German Research Foundation "Proteins as Tools in Biology" at the University of Giessen (1987-1990),

• Deputy Spokesperson of the Collaborative Research Center "Immunopathogenesis" (1990-1999)

• Spokesperson of the Collaborative Research Center "490 Infection and Persistence in Infections" in Mainz (2000-2011).[6]

• Co-founder and board member of the Association of Physicians and Scientists for Health, Freedom and Democracy, which was founded in May 2020 and lost its non-profit status in October 2020.[13] The purpose of the association is to take action against the government’s measures to contain the corona pandemic.[9]

The guy is well-known to be a crank.

One of the phenomena of this epidemic has been the bonanza it has provided for cranks and various kinds of snake oil salesman (e.g. all that dangerous tosh about bleach that Trump decided to give prominence to).

You need to take care what sources you rely on. Dismissing the "MSM", and relying on this sort of thing instead, is the start of a long downward spiral to madness.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I was tempted to say. "Oh, come off it. Nobody denies evolution. It's the evolution theory that more than half the world has a problem with. The one that scientists don't even agree on." ...but then I said to myself, "nPeace, behave yourself."
Don't curse now.

As I said; people here have a hard time accepting evolution. Thanks for adding evidence to my claim regarding this largely scientifically challenged and illiterate culture.

 

[InChrist]

It's true that lab has carried out gain of function work in the past. However (i) there is no evidence this was the case for SARS-CoV-2, (ii) gain of function programmes are strictly controlled and audited, so it would be hard for Wuhan to have run such a programme without anyone knowing or someone blowing the whistle on it, and (iii) it is absolutely normal for viruses to cross species barriers from the wild, as happened with the original SARS, with MERS and with annual 'flu'.

So it remains an unlikely and unevidenced speculation. However it is constantly talked up, for purely political reasons, by the Right in the USA.

More here: On the origins of SARS-CoV-2

Thanks for the link.
I don’t think Politico is right wing.

What about this?

In 2018, Diplomats Warned of Risky Coronavirus Experiments in a Wuhan Lab. No One Listened.



“Any theory of the pandemic’s origins had to account for the fact that the outbreak of the novel coronavirus—or, by its official name, SARS-CoV-2—first appeared in Wuhan, on the doorstep of the lab that possessed one of the world’s largest collections of bat coronaviruses and that possessed the closest known relative of SARS-CoV-2, a virus known as RaTG13 that Shi identified in her lab.”


“Large parts of the scientific community also decried my report, pointing to the fact that natural spillovers have been the cause of other viral outbreaks, and that they were the culprit more often than accidents. But many of the scientists who spoke out to defend the lab were Shi’s research partners and funders, like the head of the global public health nonprofit EcoHealth Alliance, Peter Daszak; their research was tied to hers, and if the Wuhan lab were implicated in the pandemic, they would have to answer a lot of tough questions.“