Creation and Evolution Compatible...Questions

[Deeje]

I started "digging deeper" when I was about eight years old. I was sent to Sunday school to get some religion. The thing I remember most was the cutsey pictures of all the little animals with their heads sticking out of the top of the arc. What utter nonsense. Shortly thereafter I came to realize that god was no more real than any of my comic book characters.

More "digging" as I got older reinforced that conclusion. God? Which god? Why were there so many gods and why did so many people believe in them? It became obvious after a while that people believed in the god their parents taught them to believe in. The god of their early indoctrination. You know all about that, don't you.

I was sent to Sunday School too and came out with a whole bunch of stories that made no sense until I had the knowledge to put the pieces together. The big picture was more than I ever dreamed about or was ever taught in church.

Its a funny thing but JW's have members in every nation on earth, many of which did not previously hold beliefs in a monotheistic God. They heard the Christian message and responded to it, in spite of their programming in childhood....go figure. The Bible said that people from all nations would stream to God's true worship in "the time of the end". Its happening.

So when the Genesis account says on the first, second, etc day it doesn't really mean on the first, second, etc day. It's not about what is written, it's about how it's interpreted - right? Who decides which interpretation is right?

The correct interpretation is one that agrees with both science and the Bible, since they have the same author.

The "days" of Genesis were not 24 hour periods as science can attest to. This is a very ancient planet and primitive lifeforms were in existence long before the creation of the sentient creatures mentioned in the Genesis account. The Hebrew word "day" (yohm) has several meanings, one of which is an undetermined period of time.
The creative days begin and end.....like the beginning or end of an era. Certain things took place in those periods of undetermined length, and when all that was to be accomplished in that period was finished, a declaration of approval was made expressing God's satisfaction with his efforts thus far.

YEC's insist that the earth and everything on it was poofed into existence in 7/ 24 hour days, only 6,000 years ago.....that is not what the evidence is saying. Its not what Genesis says either.

Everyone makes their own decision about which parts are literal and which parts are allegory. That's a heck of a disrespectful way to treat "The True Word Of God". As silly as are the claims of literal fundamentalists, I have more respect for them than I do for people who pick and choose to suit their own agendas.

The Bible is a very deep book and without the guidance from the one who authored it, we would never know the truth. If people are delusional, then they are delusional by choice. Won't be fun to find out who's wrong?

That's a ridiculous comment. Science is not a religion to me nor is it to anyone who understands the English language:
re·li·gion
rəˈlijən/
noun
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.

Lets try that again.....

RELIGION.....1. "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects:
the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.

3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices:"

the definition of religion

So a religion is "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature and purpose of the universe"....It is also "a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons"....as well as "the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practice." This is also a description of science.

Why does it suit the purpose of so many theists to hold this nonsensical belief?

I don't know...we think your beliefs are equally nonsensical. Again, won't it be fun to find out who's wrong?

There's that word prove again. Just a reminder, outside of mathematics, science is not in the business of proof. It is in the business of continually seeking evidence, continually throwing out bad evidence and continually accepting good evidence.

Yes, just a reminder that proof is not necessary to hold beliefs in common with a number of persons.

Evidence is in the eye of the beholder....I see evidence for Intelligent Design everywhere I look.
I can't help what you see....or what you miss.

The key words in what you wrote are "we believe". You believe because you were taught to believe your interpretations of what is written in your holy scripture just as other people believe in their interpretations of what is written their holy scripture. Everyone can't be right. But you know you are.

And kids today are not taught to believe in evolution in a school system that has basically banned one religion and replaced it with another.....how wonderful. By the time they reach university, evolution is so ingrained in their thinking that none of them would even question it......they should. It is full of holes big enough to drive a Mack Truck through them.

Besides wishful thinking, why does there need to be an all powerful creator?

Nothing is created for no reason. Do you go to a lot of trouble and effort to create something for no reason?
I have an idea about what the Creator will do with this vast universe that we are a small part of, but I want to be around to see and experience what he does. I'm sure it will blow our socks off. What have you got to look forward to? Nothing has any purpose from your perspective. How boring.

It isn't repugnant, it's just childishly silly regardless of whose interpretation of the bible are used.

And you don't see anything childishly silly about what science assumes about the past?

Life just sprang into existence somehow, one day, for no apparent reason, and then figured out how to replicate itself and then it learned how to transform itself into creatures who could reproduce their own kind and finally morph themselves into dinosaurs! Yep...very scientific.

There is no middle ground. EITHER gods are real OR gods are the creations of man's imaginings. It's a binary.

Then hopefully we will choose the right side of the argument. The unbelievers have way more to lose I think. We only get one chance to get it right.....so we need to choose carefully.

 

[Deeje]

A quote from Richard Feynman (a rather well-known and respected scientist (deceased)), on what being a scientist is all about - and with which many of us would agree:

I have approximate answers and possible beliefs in different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything.

Which is what I have stated all along. My gripe is not with science per se. True and provable science has much to teach us......My gripe is not with teaching evolution in school even....my gripe is, and will continue to be, that evolution is taught to school children like it is unquestionable fact. There are no facts in evolutionary science as many have already attested to....so tell kids that it is an unproven theory and open to amendment at any time. Tell them that there is no real evidence to substantiate what scientists assume, apart from what is known about adaptation from lab experiments.....tell them that the rest is merely assumed because science can't test for a Creator. They can't accurately test for things that happened pre-historically either. No one was around as a eyewitness to record any of it, except the Creator......and you guys don't believe him.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Which is what I have stated all along. My gripe is not with science per se. True and provable science has much to teach us......My gripe is not with teaching evolution in school even....my gripe is, and will continue to be, that evolution is taught to school children like it is unquestionable fact. There are no facts in evolutionary science as many have already attested to....so tell kids that it is an unproven theory and open to amendment at any time. Tell them that there is no real evidence to substantiate what scientists assume, apart from what is known about adaptation from lab experiments.....tell them that the rest is merely assumed because science can't test for a Creator. They can't accurately test for things that happened pre-historically either. No one was around as a eyewitness to record any of it, except the Creator......and you guys don't believe him.

The difference being that Feynman was talking about factual evidence that permeated his life and where faith was not part of his understanding - or ours. The theory of evolution does come from the best available information. Your religious belief is dictating otherwise for you.

 

[Deeje]

The difference being that Feynman was talking about factual evidence that permeated his life and where faith was not part of his understanding - or ours. The theory of evolution does come from the best available information. Your religious belief is dictating otherwise for you.

If Feynman said...."I have approximate answers and possible beliefs in different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything."

Here are another couple of quotes that you might also appreciate...I know I did.

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool."

"What I cannot create, I do not understand."

I think we can all take something home from those eh?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Its a funny thing but JW's have members in every nation on earth, many of which did not previously hold beliefs in a monotheistic God. They heard the Christian message and responded to it, in spite of their programming in childhood....go figure. The Bible said that people from all nations would stream to God's true worship in "the time of the end". Its happening.

This is true of almost all religions in the world (and straight-up cults like Scientology). It's also true of atheism and losing religion - despite global childhood indoctrination, the ratio of people growing up and becoming non-religious is increasing.

But, of course, you will ignore this basic fact, because statistics like these only mean anything when they prop up your personal preferences and beliefs, and are conveniently ignored when they don't. Very telling.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Which is what I have stated all along. My gripe is not with science per se. True and provable science has much to teach us......My gripe is not with teaching evolution in school even....my gripe is, and will continue to be, that evolution is taught to school children like it is unquestionable fact. There are no facts in evolutionary science as many have already attested to....so tell kids that it is an unproven theory and open to amendment at any time. Tell them that there is no real evidence to substantiate what scientists assume, apart from what is known about adaptation from lab experiments.....tell them that the rest is merely assumed because science can't test for a Creator. They can't accurately test for things that happened pre-historically either. No one was around as a eyewitness to record any of it, except the Creator......and you guys don't believe him.

Deejy what standard of "proof" are you referring to? In the mathematical sense not even gravity can be proven. In the legal "beyond a reasonable doubt" sense the theory of evolution has been proven. You complain when people point out that you have no understanding of the sciences at all yet you keep repeating errors that tell us that you have no comprehension at all.

Second events leave evidence. We do have evidence of what occurred in the past. Scientific evidence is well defined and there are literally mountains of it for the theory of evolution and not a lick for your fantasies. You really should try to learn what is and what is not evidence. Remember how you complain about how you have been treated? That is only because you refuse to even to try to learn the basics.

 

[Mock Turtle]

If Feynman said...."I have approximate answers and possible beliefs in different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything."

Here are another couple of quotes that you might also appreciate...I know I did.

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool."

"What I cannot create, I do not understand."

I think we can all take something home from those eh?

You suspect Feynman was a JW?

 

[gnostic]

What is your issue with the identity of satan the devil? The apostle John identified satan as the serpent in Eden. (Revelation 20:1-3) Nowhere in scripture is satan ever called "Lucifer" however.

And I agree with that, that Satan has nothing to do with Lucifer.

But Satan is only seen as the devil, only in the New Testament, but he is never the Devil in the Old Testament.

And Revelation isn’t at all reliable source, because there are too much metaphors, with symbolic meanings, therefore you cannot take anything literally in Revelation.

The Old Testament only depicted Satan as God’s agent (eg Job), doing god bidding.

If the OT Satan is evil, then so is God, since in the OT, Satan is only doing God’s bidding, and being the boss, god is responsible for any action of Satan.

Don’t get me wrong, I understand very well Satan is the Devil in the New Testament, but the Old Testament isn’t a Christian scriptures, and New Testament isn’t a Hebrew scriptures, so they should be both treated as such - two different religions.

 

[cladking]

Which is what I have stated all along. My gripe is not with science per se. True and provable science has much to teach us......My gripe is not with teaching evolution in school even....my gripe is, and will continue to be, that evolution is taught to school children like it is unquestionable fact. There are no facts in evolutionary science as many have already attested to....so tell kids that it is an unproven theory and open to amendment at any time. Tell them that there is no real evidence to substantiate what scientists assume, apart from what is known about adaptation from lab experiments.....tell them that the rest is merely assumed because science can't test for a Creator. They can't accurately test for things that happened pre-historically either. No one was around as a eyewitness to record any of it, except the Creator......and you guys don't believe him.

My gripe isn't with science either, it's with the nonsense and non experimental interpretation of observation. People, including most scientists, simply don't understand the nature of science or the meaning of experimental results. They extrapolate theory to apply to the world around them and also try to apply math where it can't be applied. We stumble headlong into the future with absolutely no concern of where we've been or where we are headed. Maybe if we understood where we've been we'd better see where we're headed.

How in the world "science" can explain evolution without ever one time considering the two most important parts of what it means to be alive is beyond me. Consciousness and behavior drive "evolution" and not "survival of the fittest". The reality that is change in species is far more consistent with religious teachings than the current "science".

This cuts across the board. Anything not rooted in experiment should be considered highly suspect.

 

[cladking]

If Feynman said...."I have approximate answers and possible beliefs in different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything."

Here are another couple of quotes that you might also appreciate...I know I did.

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool."

"What I cannot create, I do not understand."

I think we can all take something home from those eh?

Feynman and Einstein were among a very few competent metaphysicians.

 

[gnostic]

It was the angel Gabriel who announced that Jesus would be born of a virgin. (Luke 1:26-35)

You are wrong on so many levels:

1. The gospel of Luke is the wrong gospel. The gospel of Luke (GoL) never mentioned and never quoted Isaiah’s sign and has never referred to Immanuel, EVER.
2. Gabriel never quoted Isaiah 7:14.
3. Gabriel never said the virgin birth would be found in Isaiah’s sign.
4. Gabriel never said Jesus is “Immanuel”.
5. Gabriel didn’t write the GoL.
6. Gabriel also didn’t write the Gospel of Matthew (GoM).
7. Both gospels tell two different birth stories, so it would both are inventions of the authors’ respective imaginations.

You are conjecturing again, Deeje.

 

[gnostic]

My gripe isn't with science either, it's with the nonsense and non experimental interpretation of observation. People, including most scientists, simply don't understand the nature of science or the meaning of experimental results. They extrapolate theory to apply to the world around them and also try to apply math where it can't be applied. We stumble headlong into the future with absolutely no concern of where we've been or where we are headed. Maybe if we understood where we've been we'd better see where we're headed.

How in the world "science" can explain evolution without ever one time considering the two most important parts of what it means to be alive is beyond me. Consciousness and behavior drive "evolution" and not "survival of the fittest". The reality that is change in species is far more consistent with religious teachings than the current "science".

My gripe is that a person who don’t understand basic science (not talking about evolution here), and clearly have no background in science, think they know more about science.

Again, not talking about evolution, just basic science.

You don’t understand what is or isn’t “evidence”.

You repeated demonstrated your ignorance, when you think ALL EVIDENCES CAN ONLY COME FROM EXPERIMENTS.

Evidences can also found outside of laboratories. Evidences can be discovered in the fields.

And as to evolution, I don’t think you even know what “survival of the fittest” mean.

 

[gnostic]

Feynman and Einstein were among a very few competent metaphysicians.

Metaphysics isn’t science.

It is merely a philosophy...and in the real world, metaphysics is useless and outdated philosophy. It is all talk, no substance.

 

[cladking]

Metaphysics isn’t science.

It is merely a philosophy...and in the real world, metaphysics is useless and outdated philosophy. It is all talk, no substance.

Look up the definition of the word.

You are mistaken.

 

[cladking]

You don’t understand what is or isn’t “evidence”.

Again you are mistaken.
"Evidence" is the sum total of what is observed and is instrumental in hypothesis formation and in experiment design.

It can not be substituted for experimental results. It is this very substitution that has created modern "science" that knows everything but can show nothing.

I think therefore I am! How can anyone claim to understand change in species without understanding the nature of consciousness?

We are mere babes in the woods, but everyone knows everything.

 

[ecco]

... Saying there is overwhelming evidence and providing it are two completely different things...

Tens of thousands of articles, papers, books from all branches of physical science corroborating TOE have been provided. You choose to ignore them.

Actually nothing in the evidence itself contradicts Genesis at all.

Actually everything in the evidence contradicts Genesis completely. That's why Genesis believers must deny TOE.

My point was that because evolution teaches that we are nothing more than animals, we can then be excused for behaving like them.

Animals, other than humans, rarely kill one of their own species. Your bible shows your god instructing his followers to kill young boys and take young women as sexual slaves. Over thousands of years humans have used the word of your god to justify similar behavior.

It is my personal experience, after many years on these forums, that those who treat "believers" with the most contempt are usually atheists.

Yet you referred to me as a selfish person leading a meaningless life. The worst I did was suggest you were indoctrinated since early childhood.

How can life be meaningful if you can lose it tomorrow with no way to get it back?

Knowing we can lose it tomorrow makes today all the more meaningful.

Why do we grieve?

Elephants grieve. What's your point?

Well actually, all I have to do is look at the impact that godless science has made on this planet in the last 100 years or so.

In the 1950's 12,000 people in London died from coal induced smog. Scientists got England away from coal. In the 1950's Los Angles was choking in auto exhaust smog. Scientists showed the way to clean it up. In the 1950's the Hudson River was virtually dead. Science showed the way to clean it up.

Science is not godless, some scientists are atheists, most scientists believe in a god.

Most scientists who push evolution are atheists.

That's a falsehood pushed by people like you who see evolution as a threat to your fundamental beliefs. What is true is that people, scientists and otherwise, who believe in evolution no longer accept any version of Genesis as being anything other than one of tens of thousands of creation stories concocted by man.

People who identify as "Christians" ...

We can discuss that when Christians agree on what constitutes a Christian. I'm sure you are aware that many Christian denominations regard JW as a cult. If you are not aware, just Google "jw cult".

Wow! You don't know much about what God is offering then, do you? It is certainly not an eternity of this life.....this is a poor counterfeit, filled with heartache and trouble....the real one will be nothing like this.

It doesn't matter how grand you envision it. After 1% of eternity you will be so bored your will pray for it to end.

Its a tragedy when a baby dies...or when children lose their mother or father prematurely. Seeing families racked by grief, what comfort can atheists offer them? Platitudes?

Platitudes like the Christians offer - "Don't be sad, your baby is an angle in Heaven now." Uh huh.

It is human nature to want to go on living...we are unique in this. Animals do not contemplate their own death...but humans do, and it scares the hell out of them.

Speak for yourself. I don't look forward to the process of dying, which, because of Christian based laws against euthanasia, often extends pain and suffering. But I am not afraid of death.

If you believe in evolution...

The concept of evolution is the result of the accumulated knowledge of tens of thousands of years of mankind.

In contrast your OT is the based on the writings of a few people three thousand years ago who believed when goats were mated in front of ertain branches they bore young that were streaked or speckled or spotted.

Your NT are stories of a young preacher. Stories that were written many decades after the events allegedly took place. Stories that often contradict each other. Stories that have no corroboration in contemporaneous writings.

Did you ever ponder how the 1000's of words of the Sermon on the Mount were so accurately recorded?

There is no imposition when one is offered an alternative. Everyone is free to choose. Shooting the messenger will not make the message go away.

And yet you try to shoot down the "messengers" of evolution.

 

[cladking]

The concept of evolution is the result of the accumulated knowledge of tens of thousands of years of mankind.

...And this demonstrates a deep and abiding ignorance of metaphysics.

Science is barely 500 years old.

Try the "Ancient Reality" thread if you want to see what ancient people "believed".

 

[ecco]

Its a funny thing but JW's have members in every nation on earth,

Scientology also has members in every nation on earth. What's your point

The correct interpretation is one that agrees with both science and the Bible, since they have the same author.

Nonsense.

The "days" of Genesis were not 24 hour periods as science can attest to.

That's the beauty of the bible and religious folk. Everyone picks and chooses and interprets in a way that suits their agendas.

The Bible is a very deep book and without the guidance from the one who authored it,

See above

RELIGION....It is also "a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons

• Let's go bowling Monday night = Religion - Let's pray to the 10 pin.
• It'll probably rain tomorrow = Religion - Let's pray to the weatherman
• The groundhog will predict the arrival of Spring = Religion - Let's pray to Punxsutawney Phil

Where, oh where, did you get that definition of Religion?

Evidence is in the eye of the beholder....I see evidence for Intelligent Design everywhere I look.

How sad.
Your Omni-all made a flower - Is that really something incredible?
A flower is the result of millions of years of natural selection - Awesome.

And kids today are not taught to believe in evolution in a school system that has basically banned one religion and replaced it with another.....how wonderful.

Which religion do you think should be taught in public schools? Judaism? Hinduism? Catholicism? JW? Sunni Islam? Shiite Islam? Pentecostal Protestantism?

Who decides? You?

By the time they reach university, evolution is so ingrained in their thinking that none of them would even question it...

Long before kids get into kindergarten, they are exposed to their parents religious beliefs. "God said it, I believe it" does not promote critical thinking. But you know all that.

Nothing is created for no reason.

If your god did create everything he must have done it for sadistic reasons. You yourself have alluded to the pain and suffering of humans. Humans who, for tens of thousands of years, were given no knowledge of JW by the creator.

And you don't see anything childishly silly about what science assumes about the past?

Some 250 years ago a preacher had better ideas of the True Nature of Christianity. He got his own set of followers. In just 250 years that True Path has broken into four "True Paths". Here's what I see as silly - your belief that you are on the Real True Path.


Now, here is a "silly" notion promoted by science - Plate Tectonics. It "assumes" a lot about the past. Care to present evidence that it is wrong?

Life just sprang into existence somehow, one day, for no apparent reason, and then figured out how to replicate itself and then it learned how to transform itself into creatures who could reproduce their own kind and finally morph themselves into dinosaurs!

If that is your understanding of evolution...

• I can understand why you are an unbeliever.
• I realize you are ignorant of the basics of evolution.
• You got your knowledge of evolution from your elders and not from science textbooks.

 

[Subduction Zone]

...And this demonstrates a deep and abiding ignorance of metaphysics.

Science is barely 500 years old.

Try the "Ancient Reality" thread if you want to see what ancient people "believed".

You are correct that science as we know it is barely 500 years old. The ancients believed all sorts of nonsense, largely because they did not have a mechanism for checking their beliefs.

How does this support the outdated concept of metaphysics?

 

[cladking]

You are correct that science as we know it is barely 500 years old. The ancients believed all sorts of nonsense, largely because they did not have a mechanism for checking their beliefs.

How does this support the outdated concept of metaphysics?

...And this demonstrates a deep and abiding ignorance of metaphysics.

All I can do is refer you to a dictionary.

Look under "m".