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Creation is Now

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
I have to say, i don't understand what he's saying. Maybe your interpretation could enlighten me?

I'm not even sure there is such a thing as the present...

After re-reading it for the fifteenth time, i get it. This makes sense to me.
Ironically, according to some you already are enlightened (we all are), you just have to realise it.

His "in other words" makes less sense to me. I wouldn't say the present is obscured, i would say that there is no present - there is only what has occured and what is yet to occur, because by the time something has happened it is by it's nature already in the past.
Isn't it rather necessary that something come between "what has happened" and "what is yet to occur," even if it's only as slim as the boundary line that distinguishes the two?

Your last line is essentially what the "in other words" is about. Knowing the present "in the usual sense" is the illusion, and the obsuration happens because it's already past tense by the time we "know" it as "now." Even the motion of picking up a glass and drinking, or turning a page in a book, or typing on the keyboard is past tense by the time I it becomes a thing of knowledge. For us, only our actions occur in the present.

"Form" is given by thought, and "emptiness" is raw action before the thought.

"In other words, we can't know the present in the usual sense because the present is obscured by the present itself and by the act of perceiving it and conceiving of it. Form meets emptiness here and now and all of creation blossoms into being."

I tend to agree and disagree. There is only one moment, and that is eternity. The past and future are defined only by the measurement and memory of change. By measuring change, we can define such things as "past" and "future," but only in abstraction.

I like the phrase "Creation is now" because it focuses on creation as a dynamic force rather than a static event.
...so what's the part you disagree with? :D

Yes, I agree: Creation, or perhaps re-creation, is ongoing and in the everpresent eternity we call now. This is because everything is changing all the time: nothing stays the same from one atomic beat to the next, not least the individual ME (or YOU).

The OP is most consistent with Buddhist thought and philosophy, but I wouldn't call it "consciousness-centred", Patty, that's reductionistic. I would rather say "life-centred" in the light of awareness and spirit, because I believe if people could understand how their minds are constantly stuck in the "past" projecting into the future, a switch might trip to enlighten them that in reality there is only presence and a vital spark lit that restores a vibrant immediacy, beauty and calm to life in the here and now.
I love the phrase "life-centred," as that is how I think of essential being (in a very Goddess-image sense).

I had to do some "life calm" just today. People at working making my life miserable, and when I felt myself getting angry, I just reviewed the few lessons I had learned so far and it evaporated.

Oh, I think I get it now. What we experience is never the real present because it always becomes the past...Or am I missing something?
Never present, right, because the present is beyond the "experience," that "now" resides in memory. And "now." And "now." ...

Regardless of what you may be missing, you got it.
 

Random

Well-Known Member
I love the phrase "life-centred," as that is how I think of essential being (in a very Goddess-image sense).

I had to do some "life calm" just today. People at working making my life miserable, and when I felt myself getting angry, I just reviewed the few lessons I had learned so far and it evaporated.

Cool. :cool: I like the Goddess-image sense, reminds me of the time I went thru when I made the Goddess the sole focus of all my meditations, one of my most enlightening periods. Still, one must disolve all images to complete the process and escape the Wheel, and when the image goes so does the Goddess: it's sad, but She always dies in the end anyway and her son/lover always loses his godlike powers. Every rose has its thorn I suppose, enchanted or otherwise...

I'm glad you liked the phrase, Patty, and the way you applied it to a circumstance in your everyday life shows (I think) that you understood the dictinction I made between that and "consciousness-centred" before. Your grasp of Buddhism, displayed in exemplary fashion in the post predecing this one, should tell you why. :)

Peace and blessings,

Random/Conor
 

Ozzie

Well-Known Member
"Everything exists in this moment (now). This moment is the basis of all creation. The universe wasn't created the Biblical six thousand years ago or even the scientific fifteen billion. The universe is created right now and right now it disappears. Before you even have time to recognize its existence, it's gone forever. Yet the present moment penetrates all of time and space. In Dogen's words, 'What is happening here and now is obstructed by happening itself; it has sprung free from the brains of happening.'
In other words, we can't know the present in the usual sense because the present is obscured by the present itself and by the act of perceiving it and conceiving of it. Form meets emptiness here and now and all of creation blossoms into being."
~Brad Warner on Dogen's teachings

Do you agree with Brad Warner's consciousness-centred interpretation of reality? Why or why not?
I'm weighing in late as usual. I think the importance of having a present is that it demarquates our interpersonal relations, and what we make of them. On a individual level, I think notions of the "present" are no more useful than others such as "the passage of time".
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Here's how it is.
There is no time, as we perceive it, and, as a corollary, no change, no movement. All past, present and future exist simultaneously in a huge cosmic Now. The only thing moving is our consciousness.

As a film gives the illusion of movement and change as a succession of still frames is projected onto a screen, so our consciousness moves along our life-script, unable to change speed or direction, or to draw back to see more than one frame at a time.

This limit, in 3rd-state consciousness, is Maya.
 

Random

Well-Known Member
Here's how it is.
There is no time, as we perceive it, and, as a corollary, no change, no movement. All past, present and future exist simultaneously in a huge cosmic Now. The only thing moving is our consciousness.

As a film gives the illusion of movement and change as a succession of still frames is projected onto a screen, so our consciousness moves along our life-script, unable to change speed or direction, or to draw back to see more than one frame at a time.

This limit, in 3rd-state consciousness, is Maya.

Correct. How does one reach higher levels beyond Maya, Seyorni? Or do you see it as an awareness-shift within the 3-D sphere?

Would you agree your expressed view results in the affirmation of Space-time Block Determinism?
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Correct. How does one reach higher levels beyond Maya, Seyorni? Or do you see it as an awareness-shift within the 3-D sphere?

Would you agree your expressed view results in the affirmation of Space-time Block Determinism?

Meditation, drugs, sensory deprivation, sensory overload, physical exhaustion, &c, &c. And the Eastern religions pretty much are techniques to expand one's percption from a 3-D to an 11-D Universe.
Unfortunately, none of these techniques are well researched. Consciousness itself is not well understood, for that matter.

Yes, I suppose my understanding of time is consistent with Block Universe/Eternalism theory. I usually think of time more in terms of General Relativity, though.
 

Ozzie

Well-Known Member
"Everything exists in this moment (now). This moment is the basis of all creation. The universe wasn't created the Biblical six thousand years ago or even the scientific fifteen billion. The universe is created right now and right now it disappears. Before you even have time to recognize its existence, it's gone forever.
This bit sits well with a Buddhist concept of reality.

Yet the present moment penetrates all of time and space.
This is an important insight that contradicts Buddhist notions of time and space.
In Dogen's words, 'What is happening here and now is obstructed by happening itself; it has sprung free from the brains of happening.'
This is an intellectual explanation of the contradiction that appears from the two previous parts.
In other words, we can't know the present in the usual sense because the present is obscured by the present itself and by the act of perceiving it and conceiving of it. Form meets emptiness here and now and all of creation blossoms into being."
This is a conclusion drawn from the paradox formed then described earlier


Do you agree with Brad Warner's consciousness-centred interpretation of reality? Why or why not?
Brad's interpretation describes a human cognitive limitation of ordinary consciousness.
 

Kungfuzed

Student Nurse
"Everything exists in this moment (now). This moment is the basis of all creation. The universe wasn't created the Biblical six thousand years ago or even the scientific fifteen billion. The universe is created right now and right now it disappears. Before you even have time to recognize its existence, it's gone forever. Yet the present moment penetrates all of time and space. In Dogen's words, 'What is happening here and now is obstructed by happening itself; it has sprung free from the brains of happening.'
In other words, we can't know the present in the usual sense because the present is obscured by the present itself and by the act of perceiving it and conceiving of it. Form meets emptiness here and now and all of creation blossoms into being."
~Brad Warner on Dogen's teachings

Do you agree with Brad Warner's consciousness-centred interpretation of reality? Why or why not?
I agree with this mostly except I would reverse one thing. It is the universe that creates us right now and right now we dissapear. The present moment is a property of our consiousness and our consiousness is a property of the universe. We are constantly dying and being reborn every moment, constantly changing. I wonder how many myselves have existed while just typing this up. It is our simultaneous living and dying that gives us the perception of the passing of time. I'll have to think about it more. I just made this up during lunch break.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
I agree with this mostly except I would reverse one thing. It is the universe that creates us right now and right now we dissapear. The present moment is a property of our consiousness and our consiousness is a property of the universe. We are constantly dying and being reborn every moment, constantly changing. I wonder how many myselves have existed while just typing this up. It is our simultaneous living and dying that gives us the perception of the passing of time. I'll have to think about it more. I just made this up during lunch break.
Good job. I agree, with the added clarification that the present moment that is a property of consciousness, that is a property of the universe, is a property of us. You are the universe. Let me see if I can clarify that more.

Being aware creates symbols called "things" that we are aware of that reside in memory as knowledge, and at the same time creates a symbol called "me" or "I" that is an agent of awareness, that also resides in memory. A symbol is something that represents something, and our knowledge represents the world to us. We then "know" it.

Everything we know we know only after it resides in memory and is accessible to us. Everything --every "thing" --to us is of the nature of a bit of knowledge. Things in the universe are as we know them; the universe, as a thing, is as we know it; and "I am" known to me. Even properties that make things are "things" as we know them, everything as a thing reducible to more things. "Things" are our things, property of our consciousness.

If we allow time for the mechanisms that store knowledge, then we recognize that everything we know is a bit past tense. Even knowledge of "I am," which we think of as the present, is necessarily a bit past tense, however small we imagine that time to be. As a representation only, we can realise that the "thing" we know is different than what must necessarily be "out there" in the actual present to be cognized in memory or recognized from memory as a "thing" by us. It acquires a "form" through our understanding of it. "Solid" is our understanding of it, as is "fluid" and "gaseous," "large," "medium" and "small," "random" and "orderly," "up" and "down," "male" and "female," "right" and "wrong," "physical" and "mental," and "spiritual." This is our understanding of the universe. "Duality" describes our ability to split the world into things. It's a world of differences, a world of our making.

Understanding the world = a metaphor, a world "standing" or residing in memory "under" the world. Our "things" under a universal one-thing.

We can also recognize that "out there" is our understanding of things. So is "in here." That sets us up for the understanding that what the actual "out there" is like is beyond what we know (agnosticism), beyond the forms our understanding gives to things. Duality splits the world, now, so that we put ourselves in relation to a "nothingness" that we can't know. Mythology has given it the image of "the waters," others have called it numinous, the ether, "emptiness," or void. Really, it is belief in nothing, a not-thing (not one of our "things").
(With this understanding we still operate in a world of duality, but it opens the door to understanding a "unity" of all-things, nomenon and phenomenon, that brings together thing and nothing.)

That also necessarily means "in here" is one of our things, too. "In here" is our understanding of "I am." We can recognize that the symbol "I am" is an accumulation of moments of consciousness, representing something that fundamentally changes with every passing moment. It is a creation of every moment of conscious existence.

This is from Brad Warner:
It's very difficult to reach this kind of understanding when it comes to your sense of self. We've been taught implicitly since birth that our "self" is something fundamental and important and real. But our self-image is nothing other than the sum total of those particular things about our universal human nature we've chosen to emphasize in our own lives. Some teachings like to differentiate between "self" spelled with a little s and "Self" with a big S, but this just obscures the problem with unnecessary complications. No matter how you spell it, self is an illusion...

The concept of self relies upon past and future. "I have a past." "I have a future." You say, "I was made fun of as a child because of my horribly out-of-fashion shoes," or fear that, "I will die someday in a freak accident with a bowling pin." Where is the I who will die? For that matter, where is the I who is reading this word right now?...

Time isn't really like a line.
Sure, you can find evidence that things happened, photographs, old letters, scars on your hands. But the time itself is gone. I can plan for the future. I'm writing these words now, hoping they'll be read someday by someone who is interested in them. But that doesn't exist where I am now. It's a dream for me. The thing that exists right now is the action of typing. Real time is so short you can't even perceive it. Perceptions necessarily lag after real events that trigger them. Thoughts are even further behind... if there's no past and no future, the concept of "self" ceases to make any sense...

Ultimately, you are addicted to the idea of "you." It's intoxicating, fascinating, compelling. You think that there is something called "you" that perceives things, that thinks about things, and feels things and knows things. You think "you" are reading this book, and evaluating whether it's true or worthwhile. But that's an illusion. Perception occurs. Thinking occurs. But there's no one doing the perceiving, no one doing the thinking. And there's no one reading this book (actually, I do hope some people read this book, but you see my point.)

~Hardcore Zen
There's no "one" doing the thinking, there's just thinking that occurs. And if thinking can occur out of a void, then so does everything else that we are. "Self" is illusion = the Void that's thinking. it's thinking "you."

We both "are" and "are illusion" depending on how we look at it. Depending on perspective. We have three inherent perspectives on the world: objective, subjective and ...other (I call it spiritual perspective). Changing the way we look at things is as natural to us as the difference between "the world," "the world to me," and "the world-me."


It sure takes a lot of words to talk about "nothing," eh?
 

methylatedghosts

Can't brain. Has dumb.
"Everything exists in this moment (now). This moment is the basis of all creation. The universe wasn't created the Biblical six thousand years ago or even the scientific fifteen billion. The universe is created right now and right now it disappears. Before you even have time to recognize its existence, it's gone forever. Yet the present moment penetrates all of time and space. In Dogen's words, 'What is happening here and now is obstructed by happening itself; it has sprung free from the brains of happening.'
In other words, we can't know the present in the usual sense because the present is obscured by the present itself and by the act of perceiving it and conceiving of it. Form meets emptiness here and now and all of creation blossoms into being."
~Brad Warner on Dogen's teachings

Do you agree with Brad Warner's consciousness-centred interpretation of reality? Why or why not?


Oohhh, this thread was made for me! :p

Now, let me see.

My thoughts are along similar lines.

Time requires physical movement through space. We are physical things moving through space, and so we have a perception of time. The sentence "The universe is created right now and right now it disappears" rings true, not because of how we percieve it, but I think more if you look from outside of the constraints of time. I like to think of time more as vertical than as horizontal. I think we imagine time to be horizontal because of how we experience it. Time is measured by how much something moves, and as the first thing we (humans) would have used to measure time is the sun, it seems logical that way to think of time as horizontal. But to think of time as vertical, with many different layers is better I think.

If you were to imagine huge tower of pancakes, and each pancake represents a blip in time, then it becomes easier to see how everything that will happen has already happened, and we are merely climbing the stack of pancakes through time. (or falling if you'd rather fall through pancakes than climb up them). I call this the time tower. This way we are MOVING through time, and when you're at the top (or bottom, having fallen) you have the memory of the time tower going past. If you then take a step back as though you were God you can see the entire tower of time at once, and see billions of people climbing (or falling) at different heights which correspond to when they lived/will live. All of our ancestors and all of our desendants exist already at some height of this time tower

The present is thus us seeing how high we are up the tower. The present is constantly changing places, because we are constantly moving up or down the time tower.

A memory, in a way, is time-travel. You think back to a point where the present is in a different place in the time tower than where you are, and you re-live the moment.

How does that sit with everyone else?
 

methylatedghosts

Can't brain. Has dumb.
We (re)create all of reality and existance, all history and knowledge, in every moment; it only exists as we think it. Cool thought experiment. Not sure how it helps me decide what to cook for dinner though. :D

Hehe, according to the time tower, you have already decided, you just need to fall a little further (Further....Future - I just realised they're very similar words. Coincidence? Or something more sinister? :p)

Although, at the time of this reply, you have already decided and you have fallen a little further down the tower, you've already gone PAST it
 

methylatedghosts

Can't brain. Has dumb.
Here's how it is.
There is no time, as we perceive it, and, as a corollary, no change, no movement. All past, present and future exist simultaneously in a huge cosmic Now. The only thing moving is our consciousness.

As a film gives the illusion of movement and change as a succession of still frames is projected onto a screen, so our consciousness moves along our life-script, unable to change speed or direction, or to draw back to see more than one frame at a time.

This limit, in 3rd-state consciousness, is Maya.

I kind of like this.

If I incorporate it into my time tower, and take that bit you said about unable to change speed or direction, I think I prefer the falling down the tower.


I have always thought, ever since I was a kid, that time was like a film that if you could freeze time and take a bit out and examine it, you'd be able to see "pictures" of me doing things where time has stopped.

But I think I'm sticking with falling down a time tower of pancake-like blips of time
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
My thoughts are along similar lines.

Time requires physical movement through space. We are physical things moving through space, and so we have a perception of time. The sentence "The universe is created right now and right now it disappears" rings true, not because of how we percieve it, but I think more if you look from outside of the constraints of time. I like to think of time more as vertical than as horizontal. I think we imagine time to be horizontal because of how we experience it. Time is measured by how much something moves, and as the first thing we (humans) would have used to measure time is the sun, it seems logical that way to think of time as horizontal. But to think of time as vertical, with many different layers is better I think.

If you were to imagine huge tower of pancakes, and each pancake represents a blip in time, then it becomes easier to see how everything that will happen has already happened, and we are merely climbing the stack of pancakes through time. (or falling if you'd rather fall through pancakes than climb up them). I call this the time tower. This way we are MOVING through time, and when you're at the top (or bottom, having fallen) you have the memory of the time tower going past. If you then take a step back as though you were God you can see the entire tower of time at once, and see billions of people climbing (or falling) at different heights which correspond to when they lived/will live. All of our ancestors and all of our desendants exist already at some height of this time tower

The present is thus us seeing how high we are up the tower. The present is constantly changing places, because we are constantly moving up or down the time tower.

A memory, in a way, is time-travel. You think back to a point where the present is in a different place in the time tower than where you are, and you re-live the moment.

How does that sit with everyone else?
Sorry for the late reply. I'm not sure I understand the imagery, and I thought I'd give it a few days to see if I could make sense, for me, of it. By "more vertical than horizontal" I got that you mean a way of thinking about time as perpendicular to the usual "timeline" way of thinking about it. For "movement through space" I get an image of the planet circling the sun, the sun ciricling the galaxy, etc., and us in movement on the planet, all engaged in the grand dance of existence. So "past and future" through peception is experienced as "here and there," which is the "horizontal."

The bit I had trouble with was trying to "pancake" the grand dance into something "vertical." It seems, ostensibly, to just turn the "timeline" image on its side, so that I see no difference between "vertical" and "horizonal." But I've also found that some original thinking can actually be simpler than some common ways of viewing things (of course, my way is the simplest ;), but that's true for each person). Still, I'm struggling with the image of the "time tower" as something different from the "grand dance" I pictured.

So I'll address the last line, which is something I can agree with. That "a memory is time travel," the way I understand it, is simply because all knowledge, when utilized, is remembered - past, present and future. The memory of past events is of the same nature as the memory that is the "experience" of present events happening, and the anticipation of a future event happening. Even the present is past (re the OP).
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Hehe, according to the time tower, you have already decided, you just need to fall a little further (Further....Future - I just realised they're very similar words. Coincidence? Or something more sinister? :p)

Although, at the time of this reply, you have already decided and you have fallen a little further down the tower, you've already gone PAST it
Now that sounds spookily like something I had already considered - that "decision" happens in the actual present, so that by the time our knowledge of the present catches up to it, it's already past tense.
 

Kungfuzed

Student Nurse
Now that sounds spookily like something I had already considered - that "decision" happens in the actual present, so that by the time our knowledge of the present catches up to it, it's already past tense.
Everything happens in the present at one point or another. The present is the only point in time when anything can happen.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
So the void produces millions upon millions of "self's" that both contradict each other and work together? :confused:
 
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