Creation of Universe, Scriptures vs Science

[Sheldon]

Once again communication breaks down over a too literal interpretation of a word - in this case, knowledge. When religious people talk about knowing God, they generally mean it in the same sense as one might talk about knowing peace, knowing freedom, or knowing joy.

I have not attempted to justify or argue my belief in God based on evidence, logic or empiricism. Whether these tools have lead others to knowledge of God, I cannot say, but for me God consciousness is a tangible awareness of divine power, that comes from within. It’s not something arrived at through theory, analysis, or the evidence of the external senses, but rather through prayer and meditation. Willingness and open mindedness however, are also essential to this purpose.

Two problems seem immediately to present themselves:

1. These are subjective claims, one could literally claim to have experienced anything using this rationale.
2. We also know theists and adherents of religions make identical claims, and come up with very different results or deities.

I don't believe any deity exists, but if a deity exists and wants me to know it exists, and using this rather suggestible technique, then it ought not to have created me as I am. What's more it would be culpable for my failure, that much is clear.

 

[Sheldon]

I can understand that it took more than few ears, but it is difficult to believe it would have taken over hundred thousand of years.

That's an argument from incredulity fallacy.

 

[Sheldon]

There are quite a few. I am sure that you are aware of the fact of how Christians love to cite Josephus as a source of evidence for the existence of Jesus. He has a much more through record of the Roman census that the author of Luke likely relied on. In case you forgot your Bible he was the one that mentioned the Census of Quirinius in his nativity myth.

Historians also know why there would have been no such census in the time of Herod. Judea was a client state under Herod. They paid tribute and not taxes. It was not until Herod's son failed that Rome had to take over. That was when they installed Quirinius as governor of Syria. It was then that he had to take a census so that, as the author of Luke actually got right. The census was done for taxation purposes. The author of Luke just screwed up when it was, and the idea that people would have had to go to their ancient homes.

Woah. is that.. did you just give...was it objective evidence? Hold the bus...

 

[Subduction Zone]

Woah. is that.. did you just give...was it objective evidence? Hold the bus...

Did I provide objective evidence? Not really. I told him where he could find it which is what he wanted or I could even find it if needed for him. The trouble with finding evidence is finding a source that they have to accept. And since they continually claim "Josephus prove Jesus" (he doesn't really, he only says what people believed) then they have to accept him when he writes of the Census of Quirinius.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Two problems seem immediately to present themselves:

1. These are subjective claims, one could literally claim to have experienced anything using this rationale.
2. We also know theists and adherents of religions make identical claims, and come up with very different results or deities.

I don't believe any deity exists, but if a deity exists and wants me to know it exists, and using this rather suggestible technique, then it ought not to have created me as I am. What's more it would be culpable for my failure, that much is clear.

You know what Niels Bohr said to Einstein by way of retort to his statement about dice and determinism, right?

"Stop telling God what to do with his dice..."

 

[Sheldon]

Two problems seem immediately to present themselves:

1. These are subjective claims, one could literally claim to have experienced anything using this rationale.
2. We also know theists and adherents of religions make identical claims, and come up with very different results or deities.

I don't believe any deity exists, but if a deity exists and wants me to know it exists, and using this rather suggestible technique, then it ought not to have created me as I am. What's more it would be culpable for my failure, that much is clear.

You know what Niels Bohr said to Einstein by way of retort to his statement about dice and determinism, right?

"Stop telling God what to do with his dice..."

I don't believe in any deity, it was a hypothetical observation in response to your subjective assertion.

 

[1213]

There are quite a few. I am sure that you are aware of the fact of how Christians love to cite Josephus as a source of evidence for the existence of Jesus. He has a much more through record of the Roman census that the author of Luke likely relied on. ...

Please show his scriptures, where he gives the dates?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Please show his scriptures, where he gives the dates?

Josephus is a historian, not a writer of religious texts. It is not appropriate to call his writings scriptures.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Please show his scriptures, where he gives the dates?

Your question makes no sense as written. Whose "scriptures"? Josephus was a historian, He did not write "scripture".

 

[Subduction Zone]

Josephus is a historian, not a writer of religious texts. It is not appropriate to call his writings scriptures.

I had the same reaction. It was a very odd question.

 

[Sheldon]

Josephus is a historian, not a writer of religious texts. It is not appropriate to call his writings scriptures.

I agree, since his authorship is authentic, and there is some corroborating evidence for some of his historical accounts. Which is why some theists are keen to leap on his records where they appear to confirm Jesus existed as an historical person. Though of course even were this authenticated and established as historical fact, it in no way remotely evidences the exitance of any deity, or anything supernatural.

 

[1213]

Your question makes no sense as written. Whose "scriptures"? Josephus was a historian, He did not write "scripture".

Ok, I can accept that, then Bible is also a history book. So, to clarify, what book he wrote that gives the correct dates for events?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Ok, I can accept that, then Bible is also a history book. So, to clarify, what book he wrote that gives the correct dates for events?

Sorry, but if you reject history ,and it is clear that you do, you can't make that claim.

The Census of Quirinius was a census of Judea taken by Publius Sulpicius Quirinius, Roman governor of Syria, upon the imposition of direct Roman rule in 6 CE.[1]
Census of Quirinius - Wikipedia


It was in Antiquities of the Jews, It was in Book 18, Chapter one, paragraph one.

Now many professional liars for Jesus try to claim that Josephus made an error as to the date of the Census, but that only demonstrates that they did not understand Roman history at all. Judea was a client state. They did not pay taxes, they paid tribute. A census would have done nothing.

Worse yet, Joseph did not live in Judea. He would not have had to go to that census. It is a crazy story all around.

 

[Shadow11]

Crude oil - can you explain it? Scientifically it has been provided to us by life that lived on the planet 10s to 100s of millions of years ago. Or did God put it there?

 

[SkepticThinker]

If it is an observed fact, what observation makes it a fact? Evolution theory really is nothing more than modernized mother earth cult.

Evolution is the change in heritable characteristics in a biological population over successive generations.
That is an observed fact.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I don’t have enough interest to read your long essay response. What I have read is babble to me. You talk about apologists, I’m not familiar with apologists. In another paragraph, it appears you are psycho-analyzing, for which there is no purpose. I’ve read the link and it has to do with a creationist/evolutionist argument. I don’t call myself a creationist and I am not familiar with an ongoing argument of creationism versus evolution. The link is irrelevant to me and doesn’t provide the answers I’m looking for. There is no reason to discuss it. Have a nice day.

You've proven that poster right.
Congrats.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Ok, I can accept that, then Bible is also a history book. So, to clarify, what book he wrote that gives the correct dates for events?

The Bible is a collection of books. Most are not history books. A very few like Chronicles are history books. But you cannot say that i.e. the Prophets or Genesis is a history book.

 

[Sheldon]

Crude oil - can you explain it? Scientifically it has been provided to us by life that lived on the planet 10s to 100s of millions of years ago. Or did God put it there?

While that same deity was creating the light from stars more than a few thousand light years away, en route no doubt. You have to see the funny side.

 

[1213]

Evolution is the change in heritable characteristics in a biological population over successive generations.
That is an observed fact.

Ok, if it does not mean that species evolved by that way to different species, then I have no problem with it. However, by what I know, evolution theory claims that all species have developed from single species by the mechanisms of evolution to current situation. And that has no real scientific evidence.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Ok, if it does not mean that species evolved by that way to different species, then I have no problem with it. However, by what I know, evolution theory claims that all species have developed from single species by the mechanisms of evolution to current situation. And that has no real scientific evidence.

You are wrong. But then you probably do not know what "real scientific evidence" is.

Tell us what you think qualifies as "real scientific evidence". Links from science based sources would help your cause.