Creation vs magic

[Thief]

If magic is real it must comply with the universal laws. This does not mean it is impossible.

Creation starts with a clean slate with no such restrictions but institutes them.

This Universe may not have been established by either process. but by a process and laws applicable to all universes.
This neither confirms nor denies the existence of God.

you mean to say.....no magic.....
when the substance at hand obeys your will.....it's not magic?

In the temptations suffered by the Carpenter....the was opportunity to do some 'magic'.
and He denied the opportunity for cause of logic.
Do you consider such line of thought to be part of the ...'laws of the universe'?

 

[NulliuSINverba]

(Can you change stone to bread?......water into wine?)

I can turn water* into urine. Does that count?






* Or wine. It matters not.

 

[Thief]

not really...
Now if you claim to recycle your urine.....?
and it tastes like wine!!!!!!?????

but no.....let's try to be serious.
I prefer to consider the ability to willfully impose upon substance.

 

[Muffled]

and I've seen another account....
He did no great work among them for their lack of belief....
(I don't remember the name of the place.....ooops!)

and btw.....healing was dealt in a number of ways!

I beleive It isn't that He couldn't do the work but simply that their unbelief would not permit Him to do so.

I believe any way other than by proclamation is magic.

 

[Muffled]

If magic is real it must comply with the universal laws. This does not mean it is impossible.

Creation starts with a clean slate with no such restrictions but institutes them.

This Universe may not have been established by either process. but by a process and laws applicable to all universes.
This neither confirms nor denies the existence of God.

I believe you are referring to the result becasue the magic takes place whether the result is achieved or not. The prophets of Baal cut themselves as a magic practice to get their fire lit but it would not light. Elijah simply asked God to do what He said he would and the fire lit.

 

[Muffled]

I can turn water* into urine. Does that count?
* Or wine. It matters not.

I believe it only counts if the water is in a container instead of passing though you in a normal bodily process.

 

[Thief]

I beleive It isn't that He couldn't do the work but simply that their unbelief would not permit Him to do so.

Your statement is double ended....I mean to point out...

He could do the work?....but no, He needed permission?

If He was in control the work would manifest in spite of the objection of the people there.

Are you actually suggesting His ability depends of the mindset of the spectators?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I believe you are referring to the result becasue the magic takes place whether the result is achieved or not. The prophets of Baal cut themselves as a magic practice to get their fire lit but it would not light. Elijah simply asked God to do what He said he would and the fire lit.

It is a good story isn't it?
but just a story.
God does no play games for us.

 

[Muffled]

Your statement is double ended....I mean to point out...

He could do the work?....but no, He needed permission?

If He was in control the work would manifest in spite of the objection of the people there.

Are you actually suggesting His ability depends of the mindset of the spectators?

I believe that is because Jesus will not do anything against a person's will unless He is bringing judgement on the person.

I beleive I could heal my wifes asthma but she will not allow me to do it.

I believe there were people healed there because there were some that were willing to be healed.

 

[Muffled]

It is a good story isn't it?
but just a story.
God does no play games for us.

I believe you are mistaken. God will play games for us but by His own rules.

 

[Thief]

I believe that is because Jesus will not do anything against a person's will unless He is bringing judgement on the person.

I beleive I could heal my wifes asthma but she will not allow me to do it.

I believe there were people healed there because there were some that were willing to be healed.

I saw several distinct events....
Healing with deliberate touch....
without intent on His part....
the recipient was not present....

but each occasion did seem to require .....belief....on someone's part.

it does seem.....no belief.....no effect

 

[NulliuSINverba]

I believe it only counts if the water is in a container instead of passing though you in a normal bodily process.

Sorry. I lost my copy of Hoyle in my last change of residence.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

you mean to say.....no magic.....
when the substance at hand obeys your will.....it's not magic?

In the temptations suffered by the Carpenter....the was opportunity to do some 'magic'.
and He denied the opportunity for cause of logic.
Do you consider such line of thought to be part of the ...'laws of the universe'?

If the story is factual , it must follow the laws of the universe.
Almost certainly some things attributed to Jesus never happened.
I never said no magic, just that if it exists it must follow the same laws, there can be no exceptions.