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Creationism v Evolution

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
Do you think that provides a valid example for morality? I mean isn't God all goodness and justice. So, shouldn't we be able to follow his example? Or do we always have to give God the benefit of the doubt simply because it's God?

Do you think humans are immoral for killing some animals as source of food ?
We are created by God and we are owned by him.

Imagine you were able to create a conscious robot that disobeyed your instructions and became harmful, is it immoral if you decided to end his life that you gave it to him.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
No more immoral than animals are when they kill humans.

Why then we kill animals if it's immoral.

That's a bold claim considering that no one has ever proven the existence of a God or gods.

We're assuming that God does exist.

Yes. It would be immoral to kill a conscious created being just because it was disobedient.
Is it a proper punishment for a child to be murdered by his parents for not listening to their instructions? If it is, then how did any of us survive childhood?

We don't make our children otherwise you have to design it the way you wish it to be, creation is by God and not by humans.

Why you think it's immoral to end a conscious robot that you made if you decided to replace it with a new one ?
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
Consciousness implies sentience. Your children are conscious creatures made by you. If it's moral for the assumed god to kill his conscious creations, then it's moral you and I to kill our children when they don't listen to us.

Our children isn't our invention.

Imagine we were able to create 1000 human beings from nature and they had no father and no mother, then after a time these creatures became violent and started to do a harmful things then we decided to end them to create a different ones.

Are we immoral if we decides to end those bad creatures and make a new better ones ?
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
If that's our assumption, then we have to ask ourselves why we're so terrible at designing human beings.

Ultimately we would still be responsible for those 1,000 created creatures, right? Good or bad, they are reflective and representative of our creation, and of our ability to create, of our intelligence and foresight in planning those creations. If we just smashed them to bits because we weren't happy with the outcome of what we made, then we would need to do some serious self evaluation, or at the very least take an anger management class, wouldn't we?

If you have children, or have friends who have children, you should be able to observe this play out in real life. Someone you know, or maybe even yourself, has turned out differently from how their parent's planned their life to go. Do those children who chose a different path deserve to be destroyed because they did not follow their creator's guidelines to the letter?

What about if real humans attacking and killing people for no reason ?
Do you think it is right to fight back and kill them or we have to take an anger management class ?
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Do you think humans are immoral for killing some animals as source of food ?
We are created by God and we are owned by him.

Imagine you were able to create a conscious robot that disobeyed your instructions and became harmful, is it immoral if you decided to end his life that you gave it to him.
If I already knew that it was going to be immoral before I built it (God is omniscient remember) I would ask myself why the hell did I build it in the first place. Beyond that, I would reprogram it. Not destroy it. And if I was dealing with life, I would do what I could to preserve it.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
If I already knew that it was going to be immoral before I built it (God is omniscient remember) I would ask myself why the hell did I build it in the first place. Beyond that, I would reprogram it. Not destroy it. And if I was dealing with life, I would do what I could to preserve it.

But the conscious robot is supposed to have a free will and not entirely programmed.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
So, then God is not omniscient. If there is free-will, and we can act against God's will or prediction, then he is not "all-knowing".

Yes God is omniscient of what everyone is doing and he's all-knowing of our deeds and what is in our minds but we have the free will of how we want to live, we choose our way of life.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Yes God is omniscient of what everyone is doing and he's all-knowing of our deeds and what is in our minds but we have the free will of how we want to live, we choose our way of life.
So, then God is not omnicient? Omniscience (or being all knowing) requires knowledge of the future, or what is to come. If God granted us freedom, taking away his ability to know the future, he would be limited, and not omnicient. That is actually how I see God, to tell you the truth. If he did give us free-will, that action must have limited his ability to know the future (our future actions), and it woud, by definition, mean that God was not all knowing (by choice, but still true).

Then, there is this problem. Being all-knowing about something you made is pretty darn easy when they obey your every command, so why is that even all that impressive?
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
So, then God is not omnicient? Omniscience (or being all knowing) requires knowledge of the future, or what is to come. If God granted us freedom, taking away his ability to know the future, he would be limited, and not omnicient. That is actually how I see God, to tell you the truth. If he did give us free-will, that action must have limited his ability to know the future (our future actions), and it woud, by definition, mean that God was not all knowing (by choice, but still true).

Then, there is this problem. Being all-knowing about something you made is pretty darn easy when they obey your every command, so why is that even all that impressive?

Where did God say that he knows the future of everyone and which way each of us will choose ?
Actually that doesn't make any sense as to test someone while knowing what will be his answers, then why the test if the answers is already known.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Where did God say that he knows the future of everyone and which way each of us will choose ?
Actually that doesn't make any sense as to test someone while knowing what will be his answers, then why the test if the answers is already known.
I agree. I do not think that God is omniscient. It is a belief held by pretty much all Christians and Jews. Is that not a concept in Islam?
 

Mohammad Nur Syamsu

Well-Known Member
I agree. I do not think that God is omniscient. It is a belief held by pretty much all Christians and Jews. Is that not a concept in Islam?

It, obviously, very obviously, isn't a lack of knowledge to not know there is a pink elephant, because there isn't one. It is no limit on omniscience to not know things which aren't true. It is not a lack of knowledge to not know what the result of a decision will be, prior to that the decision is made. There is simply nothing to know there.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
It, obviously, very obviously, isn't a lack of knowledge to not know there is a pink elephant, because there isn't one. It is no limit on omniscience to not know things which aren't true. It is not a lack of knowledge to not know what the result of a decision will be, prior to that the decision is made. There is simply nothing to know there.
I'm sorry, but if there is a single thing that an entity does not know, including the results of future decisions, then that entity is not omniscient.

My point is that, unless the futur is determined and God knows what that future will be, God is not omniscient, according to the definition of the term. He is not "all-knowing" because there is something he doesn't know ... namely, the future. You claim that "there is simply nothing to know there", but that is because knowing the outcome of future decisions seems counter-intuitive to us. We are extremely limited in our capacity for understanding, but we are talking about God here. If he is limited in the same way that we are when it comes to knowing the future, God is limited and, thus, no omniscient.

Your argument is basically trying to avoid the problem by claiming that it is unreasonable to expect God to know this. I agree. I think it is unreasonable too. Which, is why I do not believe that God is omniscient.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
It, obviously, very obviously, isn't a lack of knowledge to not know there is a pink elephant, because there isn't one. It is no limit on omniscience to not know things which aren't true. It is not a lack of knowledge to not know what the result of a decision will be, prior to that the decision is made. There is simply nothing to know there.
Pink elephant?! I'm not asking whether God knows about things that don't exist. I'm asking whether God knows what the future will bring. If he does not, then he is not omniscient.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Well, the fundamentals of the most complex bodies of animal life are very consistent. Even to the point that whales' bodies contain vestigial pelvic bones - indicating that it was very likely a land mammal as their source-ancestor. You can take almost any creature and take a stab at how a particular aspect of that creature may have evolved. Birds, for instance - maybe they were small, needed the ability to get away quickly, and the ones that were the fastest were the ones whose "hairs" helped in the escape by bearing them on the wind ever so slightly. Over time, the selective pressures of their predators (and likely their predators also evolving features allowing them to catch prey more easily) had only those whose hairs were the most predisposed to this "wind-bearing" surviving to reproduce. In each subsequent generation, the strongest, widest and lightest forms of "hair" were to be had on the creatures who survived and therefore procreated - the next generation then being further strengthened in those areas until one day the creature actually could "glide" and, then again eventually, fly.

I'm sure that's nothing you haven't heard before, but I was simply trying to get across the idea of how a very complex ability and physical attributes supporting that ability could have come about by the (lengthy) process of evolution.

And as for the question of Adam and peoples found around the range of the earth, there really isn't a religious explanation that accounts for the timelines of the most ancient civilizations - unless you subscribe to the apologetic ideas of a day not actually meaning a day, or a year not really meaning a year. I think we all just need to accept the ignorance of our ancestors in most cases, just as future generations will look back and realize and accept as ignorance some of the ideas we continue to hold now. Perfect example is the creation story itself - the moon is described, literally, as one of two great "lights" put into the sky. The moon, as we know today, produces no light of its own, and its luminescence is merely a reflection of the sun's light, and there are, of course, cycles during which the moon puts off little to no light. Not only this, but the true value of the moon to our planet is in its refreshment of water via the tides, and the land via the generation of wind (also much related to the tides). Describing it as a "light" is done out of ignorance to its true nature and facility, plain and simple.

Similarly a car design that performs better will survive to be replicated more frequently- the selection of superior traits goes without saying whether that superior design comes through intelligence or chance

the superior design occurring by chance in the first place is the tricky part.

re the sun and moon, the direct practical use humanity was aware of, was primarily their light, Genesis sums up creation in a very poetic way from a human perspective- it was not meant to be a ponderous technical manual-

It correctly states that these bodies appeared at different specific times, as did kinds of life, as did the universe, something atheist academics rejected until fairly recently.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
*** Mod Post Reminder: This is a DIR thread, subject to Rule 10. Please avoid debates, and avoid posting anything about respectful questions unless you adhere to an Abrahamic Religion. ***
 

EyeofOdin

Active Member
I'm only replying because you apparently made yourself open to persuasion. Here's what I know as an amateur:

The definitions in scientific circles are different. A fact is something objectively and absolutely recreated and observed with no room for error. A theory is an explanation for multiple phenomenon, usually with weight of evidence. If a theory is recreated in a lab setting or observed in nature, it's then considered a fact.

There are two types of "evolution" called "micro evolution" and "macro evolution". Micro ev. is the proven fact that species of every sort changes over generations. We've been able to take this into our own hands and selectively manipulating evolution starting with a gray wolf and ending up with a descendant looking like a chihuahua or pit bull through breeding of many generations. This happens naturally in the wild, and we've seen this change in every kingdom of life, with no room for error.

Macro ev. Is simply the micro form on a much larger scale the explain the diversity and similarities between all life forms. It's impractical to prove because it's already happened over billions of years. We can't possibly observe microorganisms evolving into elephants, fungi, roses, dinosaurs etc. because we can't go back in time and recreating this in a lab wouldn't prove that wild elephants came from primordial microorganisms, just that they can in a lab setting.

Now we get into paleontology, the historical science. History of any sorts is viewed by science as technically mostly theoretical. Paleontology studies fossils and reconstructs a most likely form of the evolutionary tree of life based on similar characteristics of fossils. These theories are then applied to facts. An obvious example is dinosaur study. Did we see dinosaurs evolve into birds? No, so it's not a fact. Do we see anatomical similarities between them? Yes. Are they inherited through evolution by fact? No. We didn't recreate or observe the transition. Does the fossil record most support this theory of the origins of birds? Yes. Technically not a fact, but very widely accepted theory.

Keep in mind, theory doesn't mean "false" or "conjecture". A concept could only be a theory because it's not possible to prove, like gravity. We can prove that objects fall to the earth, but we can't recreate or observe the supposed magnetic attraction proposed by physics. Therefore gravity a theory.

How I understand evolution to work on a genetic scale is best explained through this scenario:

Let's say there's a lizard species called the stinkies. They live in tropical environments with black soil. Stinkies are green. For whatever reason, some radiation from somewhere ends up colliding with the embryonic dna molecules of a stinky. Usually this process causes deformities, like cancer. By happy accident however, this doesn't cause this stinky to die but simply develope darker and black scales. This is a mutation. This mutation helps her survive by camaflauge and she breeds with one of her species, passing on the gene to some of her offspring.

Green stinkies are more noticeable to predators, however one gets another mutation making its skin poisonous to birds of prey and carnivorous mammals, the majority of the predators in the stinkies' environment.

Predators like eagles get some mutations to be afraid of green lizards. The ones without eat stinkies and die. The only ones left and the only ones to be born are afraid of green lizards.

Eventually black stinkies and green stinkies undergoe such different mutations that their genes become incompatible and they can't breed, therefore they've evolved into two different species. Maybe black stinkies become larger, not needing to be as agile, and hunt in ambush, blending into the black soil. Maybe green stinkies become more vividly colored, because their well known venom allows them to be noticeable. Maybe green stinkies become more agile because a predator underwent a mutation giving it immunity to the poisonous lizards' skin, leaving the slow and weak stinkies to be eaten. The swift stinkies pass on their athletic genes and the slower ones' genes die, not to be passed to the next generation.

It's thought that humans are afraid of snakes and spiders because they used to be more commonly venomous, and the hominids who weren't afraid walked up to them and died via bite. The ones afraid survived.

The evolution of man is fascinating to me. It's said we underwent mutations to make our brains more able to understand more complicated and abstract ideas because it takes a smart brain to handle the complexity of a larger social group. Larger social group means better chance of survival. This large brain needed to better communicate with its species' own community, so calls, cries and yelps became more complex. Later language developed.

Evolution also explains similarities between life. ALL life reproduces the same way, with cellular DNA and RNA. The theory of macro evolution explains this phonomenon among others, like how all groups classified together are grouped because of shared characteristics. Primates are grouped together because of the theory that they share a recent common ancestor. This theory explains the many phenomenon of the superficial similarities (forward facing eyes, hand structure, shortened snout, bony eyebrow ridges etc.) between animals like leamures, gorillas, chimpanzees and, yes, hominids.

So to sum it all up and to conclude, micro evolution is a proven fact, period. As for macro evolution, I guess I'll conclude with the statement that science itself, due to its self criticism and desire for absolute correctness, isn't convinced MACRO evolution is a fact. Convincing you to "believe" in Macro ev. or to accept it for anything other than what it is: the most scientifically valid theory to explain the diversity and similarity of life on earth, is silly. I personally hope we all can accept scientific fact and explore the theories for our betterment while strictly leaving our religious lore in the respectable field of spirit and religion, not applying them to our understanding of the natural world.
 
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