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Creationist Error #4: Really, really "believing" something is the same thing as "knowing" something.

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
Of course, we know this not to be true; after all, there still exist people on our tiny planet who "really, really" believe that the earth is Flat and that the universe revolves around the earth. In fact, there is some guy on YouTube who postulates the ancient Babylonian cosmology of a firmament for the sky and a flat earth sitting on foundations is the true model of our universe; and spends a great deal of time and effort concocting his "proofs" for such as this. He can believe this as much as he wants, as hard as he wants, and even manage to convince himself that he "knows" this. But the fact of the matter is, this specific individual can believe as much as he wants to that this model of the universe is fact and that he "knows" it to be fact; but in reality, he knows nothing about cosmology, laws of motion or gravity; as his model of reality contradicts all of these sciences and more.

The same thing applies to Creationism: You can "believe" all you want to, as hard as you want, that the universe was intelligently designed or created by a divine being; but that belief does not equate to knowledge; and without facts that positively confirms these assertions, this should not be considered fact or knowledge.
I think also in this vein we should add in the different definitions of "believe".

I can "believe" in the tooth fairy. I can also "believe" in myself. I am also able to "believe" that if I drop a book it will fall to the ground. I can "believe" the bus will get on time based upon prior evidence. They are not all the same thing. (except the last two)

There are three distinct different types of "belief". I f I "believe" that evolution is true that is a correct statement. I try to usually us the word "accept" but it is still a correct statement by English standard. It however is not the same usage of the word "belief" as in "faith".
 

NewGuyOnTheBlock

Cult Survivor/Fundamentalist Pentecostal Apostate
The points on definitions of "knowledge" and "belief" are well received and I have spent some time contemplating how to hone the point I am attempting to make.

The main point that is getting lost in philosophical debates on the meaning of "knowledge" and "belief" is this:

Creationists wish to put Creationism on par with Evolution; as if it they were equal positions in a debate. These two positions are certainly not equal.

The definition of "scientific knowledge" is "knowledge accumulated by systematic study and organized by general principles."

Evolution presents us with knowledge; demonstrable realities of how the world works that can be used to obtain more knowledge and can also be used to predict future outcomes.

We know the principles of flight; thus we can build machines that fly (it is usable knowledge). We know why things float; thus we can build machines that float (it is usable knowledge). We know the laws of gravity, thus we can predict when, how fast and how hard something will fall or where stellar bodies will be located in relation to each other several millennium from today (it is usable knowledge). Most of us know how to ride a bicycle so we can ride that bicycle (it is usable knowledge). We know how weather works so we can, to some degree of certainty, predict what the weather will be like in the coming days (it is usable knowledge).

Creationism is not demonstrable, testable, measurable; it isn't falsifiable; it can not be used to predict future outcomes; it does not subject itself to experimentation in any form; it isn't even founded on sound scientific principles and does not meet one criteria for a given idea to be called a "theory". "Creationism" and the "knowledge" it postulates to present was not acquired through the scientific method.

Evolution and the principles behind it can be used to
  • Predict that species will change (evolve, adapt) to new environments or fail to survive;
  • Predict the locations and depths of new fossil evidence;
  • Determine suitable habitats in zoology or relocation efforts of species
Creation and the nonexistent principles behind it can be used to
  • .

Creationism can predict nothing. It can explain nothing. It can't be confirmed by known scientific knowledge. It can not be confirmed at with any degree of certainty and if it can't be confirmed, it certainly should not be considered "knowledge". It is a belief founded entirely on faith; and as it is a belief founded entirely on faith that can add no new knowledge or discoveries to our world, it can only be coined as "knowledge" in the idea that someone, somewhere, holds it to be true.

You can believe in any given thing as much as you want, as hard as you want; but if it can't be confirmed, can't be used for predictable outcomes, then it can't be construed as "knowledge" except in the realm of sophistry, trivia and philosophy.
 

NewGuyOnTheBlock

Cult Survivor/Fundamentalist Pentecostal Apostate
... In fact, I wonder how many posters actually read my OP; as I defined knowledge in the last sentence that is quite similar to how I defined it above when I said:

You can "believe" all you want to, as hard as you want, that the universe was intelligently designed or created by a divine being; but that belief does not equate to knowledge; and without facts that positively confirms these assertions, this should not be considered fact or knowledge.
 

Vishvavajra

Active Member
Exactly, you think, you believe in things that are unsubstantiated and #4 applies you especially. You just admitted it. Following faith instead of what is actually known.
Careful: knowing isn't as cut and dried as you imply. What we call "knowing" is usually a form of inference based on experience. That's already one step removed from direct experience, and even direct experience isn't infallible. Epistemology is a headache at the best of times.

If there's a meaningful difference between "believing" and "knowing," it's that knowing something is more or less equivalent to believing it with good reason, such as a solid foundation of evidence that is objective enough to appeal to different people in different circumstances, whereas highly subjective beliefs are specific to individuals and can't really be demonstrated in a way that will appeal to others. "Knowing" is shorthand for a very complex set of mental calculations whose nature isn't all that useful to bring up in casual discourse but might be relevant here.

The OP's post is useful in that many people will say that they "know" things to be true even when those things are purely subjective feelings without the sort of evidence that can convince others who don't share those feelings. That's not what we broadly understand as knowledge, and characterizing it as such is disingenuous. On the other hand, it's helpful to keep in mind that even our knowledge is mostly inferential.
 
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