Creationist - What about Evolution you disagree with?

[RitalinO.D.]

Is it me, or are David M and I on the same wavelength, only he's much more precise?

The best part is he's christian and defending evolution. Which means he doesnt ignore empirical research with hairbrain delusions.

 

[Autodidact]

Alas, I have frubaled him too recently to do so now, so let us have a moment of silent frubal, as it were, for David.

 

[RitalinO.D.]

Alas, I have frubaled him too recently to do so now, so let us have a moment of silent frubal, as it were, for David.

Wish someone would frubal me I hear they are tasty...

 

[painted wolf]

I got him

wa:do

 

[Pegg]

No he's not. He is lowering the known rate by orders of magnitude.

He claims 1 per 10 matings when the truth for humans is about 1,500 per 10 matings. And even that underestimates the actual numbers of mutations because a lot of fertilisations do not carry to term and a portion of those are due to deleterious mutations.

Do you realise that the number of fixed mutations in functional genes that separate us from chimps is under 1,000 and could be as low as 500. Differences like the single amino acid changes that do not affect gene and protein function are irrelevant.

Thats 14 million years of evolution to produce less than 1,000 significant genetic differences and only a portion of these affect phenotype.

i'd be interested to see where those figures are used

I keep finding information that explains how rare mutations actually are.

Mutation Rate
The frequency with which genes mutation sononeously is called mutation rate. Most genes are relatively stable and mutation is a rate event. The great majority of genes have mutation rate of 1x 10-5 to 1x10-8, viz, one gamete in 100,000 to one gamete in a million would contain a mutation at a given locus.

 

[Autodidact]

i'd be interested to see where those figures are used

I keep finding information that explains how rare mutations actually are.

Mutation Rate
The frequency with which genes mutation sononeously is called mutation rate. Most genes are relatively stable and mutation is a rate event. The great majority of genes have mutation rate of 1x 10-5 to 1x10-8, viz, one gamete in 100,000 to one gamete in a million would contain a mutation at a given locus.

It is relatively rare, but we have so many genes that it still results in many mutations in each reproductive event.

Are you doubting the figures provided to you from reputable scientific sources? If so, why?

Your source was simply in error. I doubt this will have the slightest effect on your position, because your position is not based on the facts; it's based on religious faith.

It is always inappropriate to bring religious faith to bear on a scientific question.

 

[Pegg]

It is relatively rare, but we have so many genes that it still results in many mutations in each reproductive event.

Are you doubting the figures provided to you from reputable scientific sources? If so, why?

Your source was simply in error. I doubt this will have the slightest effect on your position, because your position is not based on the facts; it's based on religious faith.

It is always inappropriate to bring religious faith to bear on a scientific question.

i didnt beleive in evolution long before i became religious, so no, my view of evolution is based on 'the fact' that animals reproduce according to what they are programed to reproduced

and on the fact that life comes only from pre-existing life... to my mind, that dispels the possiblity that life came from non living matter...and the information for reproduction must have been put there rather then 'appeared miraculously'

thats why i dont believe in evolution....not because religion told me, but in some way religion has filled the space, that my own mind saw, before anyone showed it to me.

 

[RitalinO.D.]

I got him

wa:do

 

[RitalinO.D.]

i didnt beleive in evolution long before i became religious, so no, my view of evolution is based on 'the fact' that animals reproduce according to what they are programed to reproduced

and on the fact that life comes only from pre-existing life... to my mind, that dispels the possiblity that life came from non living matter...and the information for reproduction must have been put there rather then 'appeared miraculously'

thats why i dont believe in evolution....not because religion told me, but in some way religion has filled the space, that my own mind saw, before anyone showed it to me.

So you don't believe that current strains of influenza are immune to vaccines from just a few years ago? It's a fact.

http://www.college.ucla.edu/webproject/micro12/m12webnotes/viralevolution.htm

Since viruses have such high mutation and reproductive rates, they can adapt to changing environments quite well. Indeed, since the only way they can reproduce is by infecting a cell they must be able to evolve faster the their hosts cells. If not, then the host cells would adapt/evolve to where a virus would no longer be able to infect. Cells change their surface receptors so viruses cannot attach; the viruses change their surface proteins so they can attach to the changed cell surface receptors. The viruses must always stay ahead of the evolution game. They are very, very good at this.

Some viruses solve the host numbers problem by overcoming the animal's immune memory by changing or mutating into a slightly different virus that can infect the same host over and over. If a virus has a high mutation rate it can overcome our immune memory by changing its' surface proteins (Ag's) so the antibodies that are produced no longer attach. The RNA viruses are good at this. HIV that causes AIDS mutates so fast that the immune system never clears it from the body and every vaccine that has been developed has failed to prevent infection from this ever-mutating virus.

Proof of evolution right there in your face. How can you deny that?

 

[Pegg]

So you don't believe that current strains of influenza are immune to vaccines from just a few years ago? It's a fact.

viral evolution


Proof of evolution right there in your face. How can you deny that?

i dont deny that at all, nor do i have a problem with it

what i have a problem with is the more dubious claims that one animal can completely change its form to become a completely different animal with different biological features

 

[David M]

i'd be interested to see where those figures are used

I keep finding information that explains how rare mutations actually are.

Mutation Rate
The frequency with which genes mutation sononeously is called mutation rate. Most genes are relatively stable and mutation is a rate event. The great majority of genes have mutation rate of 1x 10-5 to 1x10-8, viz, one gamete in 100,000 to one gamete in a million would contain a mutation at a given locus.

The important point is the phrase "at a given locus" The chance you are quoting there is of 2 gametes having a mutation in identical places.

If you use a mutation rate of 1x10-8 per base pair then with the human genome of 3 billion base pairs that would predict 30 mutations per offspring, the lower value would give 30,000 mutations.

Analysis of human dna shows 100-200 mutations in each offspring.

 

[Autodidact]

i didnt beleive in evolution long before i became religious, so no, my view of evolution is based on 'the fact' that animals reproduce according to what they are programed to reproduced

Every offspring is an exact duplicate of its parent?

and on the fact that life comes only from pre-existing life... to my mind, that dispels the possiblity that life came from non living matter...and the information for reproduction must have been put there rather then 'appeared miraculously'

I see, your opposition to the Theory of Evolution comes from having no idea what it actually is?

thats why i dont believe in evolution....not because religion told me, but in some way religion has filled the space, that my own mind saw, before anyone showed it to me.

O.K. if the facts and theory turn out to be different than you thought, are you open to changing your position?

 

[Autodidact]

i dont deny that at all, nor do i have a problem with it

what i have a problem with is the more dubious claims that one animal can completely change its form to become a completely different animal with different biological features

Wouldn't it be interesting if the Theory of Evolution said anything of the kind? Just let me know if you're ever interested in learning what it actually says.

 

[Pegg]

Every offspring is an exact duplicate of its parent?

of course not an 'exact' replica...reproduction is not cloning.... but it is producing a progeny that is biologically the same as the parent. ie, a dog will always produce a dog. The dogs may vary greatly, but they will always be a dog.

I see, your opposition to the Theory of Evolution comes from having no idea what it actually is?

O.K. if the facts and theory turn out to be different than you thought, are you open to changing your position?

so far, science has only proved that the information contained in the genes are carried onto the next generation...that process continues and will continue to produce the same animals within their 'family' (im not sure if family is the right classification because it depends who you ask...there doesnt seem to be a clear cut classification system)

so for instance, within the Cat/feline family, we get a large variety of cats who will always remain cats.

 

[RitalinO.D.]

i dont deny that at all, nor do i have a problem with it

what i have a problem with is the more dubious claims that one animal can completely change its form to become a completely different animal with different biological features

But what I don't understand is, you can accept one form of evolution, yet refute the big picture?

And your explaination of the TOE is really quite far off.


I have an honest question for you, and please dont take offense, as that is not my aim. I'm just curious, have you actually studied evolution at all? High school, college, etc. or is your idea of evolution the convoluted, misinformed flavor that spreads through the religious community? Please answer honestly.

 

[Autodidact]

of course not an 'exact' replica...reproduction is not cloning....

Exactly. Stop there. This is a key concept of the Theory of Evolution. Offspring are not the same--they are different. A little different. Over time, the population changes gradually, as each generation of offspring is a little different from its parents.

but it is producing a progeny that is biologically the same as the parent. ie, a dog will always produce a dog. The dogs may vary greatly, but they will always be a dog.

Is there something that stops offspring from being different from their parents at some point? Or are offspring always different from their parents? Hint: think spectrum of gray, rather than black vs. white. Black may always spawn black, but over a long stretch, black can spawn black spawn dark gray spawn medium gray etc. etc. till it becomes white. (For more on this, read The Tyranny of the Discontinuous Mind.) Little in nature is discrete categories. Most things are gradually changes spectrums with no bright line.

so far, science has only proved that the information contained in the genes are carried onto the next generation...that process continues and will continue to produce the same animals within their 'family' (im not sure if family is the right classification because it depends who you ask...there doesnt seem to be a clear cut classification system)

It would help if you started by admitting that you know almost nothing about the subject of Biology. Recognizing that, don't you think it's a bit ambitious to tell people who know a lot about it that they're wrong?

Science never proves anything. I'm tired of explaining this to people who should learn at least a little about things before attempting to reverse the progress of human knowledge.

Again, at this point you don't know what the Theory of Evolution (ToE) is, so it's hard to discuss its finer points. It would be better if you first took some time to learn what science has in fact learned. I can explain it to you, or you can get a Biology book or take a Biology class, or spend some time at a SCIENTIFIC site such as the Berkeley Evolution site--not a lying creationist site. You'll never learn it there, because they don't understand it.

so for instance, within the Cat/feline family, we get a large variety of cats who will always remain cats.

How do you know? Is there some brake, some mechanism that prevents future generations of feline descendants from changing beyond the "cat" limit?

 

[painted wolf]

What is a "Cat"?

What features are impossible to find in things that are not cats and prevent cats from being something other than cats?

wa:do

 

[waitasec]

food for thought

Science never proves anything.

as if there was a scientific agenda that supports a biased opinion.

 

[Pegg]

I have an honest question for you, and please dont take offense, as that is not my aim. I'm just curious, have you actually studied evolution at all? High school, college, etc. or is your idea of evolution the convoluted, misinformed flavor that spreads through the religious community? Please answer honestly.

i never studied evolution as a subject...it came up in general science at school in years 9 and 10 ( i finished school in yr 10 and didnt go onto college or any form of study after that)

What i know of evolution is from what i've read about it in books that present both sides of the argument. I've found that the arguments 'against' evolution are stronger then the arguments 'for' it.

 

[RitalinO.D.]

i never studied evolution as a subject...it came up in general science at school in years 9 and 10 ( i finished school in yr 10 and didnt go onto college or any form of study after that)

What i know of evolution is from what i've read about it in books that present both sides of the argument. I've found that the arguments 'against' evolution are stronger then the arguments 'for' it.

Would you mind listing the books you've read, as it would be interesting to me to read an unbiased piece of literature that actually convinced someone evolution is fake. Seriously