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Creationists: Here's your chance

David_M

Define the scope of the terms "created" and "designed", as they cover a huge range of intervention.

Created means God created stuff. He created the parts and how they go together. Creating the parts is the creating, designing is putting the parts together.


But as a general concept my answer would be yes. However I don't belive God specifically created individual species.

So you believe God created and designed the universe but not species? So did chance create the species?

Also you being Christian and all, I’m sure you believe in the bible, right? How do you interpret the parts where it says God created the creatures according to their various kinds?
 

Walkntune

Well-Known Member
I would seriously like to know who is feeding you your information. recently i have come across many cases of Christians who seam to be trying to turn my current view of cause and effect completely around. they are having me believe the sun has energy because it is emiting light. once it stops emiting light it will have no source for its energy. that may sound fairly reasonable to an average mind, but to me such a thing is totally ridiculous: it is in fact the suns energy that causes it to emit light, not the other way around. In anycase, these Christians portraying themselves as less sane than muslims by asserting that THEIR biased but possible science is right...or will be proven right later. that is NOT good enough. that is INFACT dishonest. They begin with a premise of "supernatural energies" and assert that everything is the effect of those "not-yet-proven...paritcles?" Assuming that a change in chemicals is caused by the effect of THE IPU on our "soul" is ridiculous, dishonest, and a mockery of everything that has been worked thus far...untill one can measure and show the "mystical energies" effectively, it is best to not assume everything we know about cause and effect in biological systems is wrong. It is infact STIMULI that cause EFFECTS in our bodies. STIMULI being those things that affect our bodies such as CHEMICALS!(and our senses, and phisical and mental factors) no responce to "mystical energies" has ever been effectively shown...to the best of my knowledge.
Just because there our energies unmeasurable like gravity does not make it supernatural.
Out of curiosity, when people stuff their feelings and emotions, what exactly do you think is going on?Since you believe a chemical reaction is all that is happening I am curious as to why stuffing emotions(whatever that is) has so much effect even 50,60,70 years down the road?
 
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painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Also you being Christian and all, I’m sure you believe in the bible, right? How do you interpret the parts where it says God created the creatures according to their various kinds?
To be truly honest the Bible says that God said: "Let the Earth bring forth creatures after their kind".
It says nothing more on how God did it... unless you have a different Bible?
Letting the Earth do something leaves a lot of room for natural processes.

wa:do

 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Just because there our energies unmeasurable like gravity does not make it supernatural.
Gravity can be measured... we even have a map of where on Earth the gravity varies.

Because of the nature of the rocks, gravity isn't uniform around the planet, there are slight differences... elevation can also have a slight (but measurable) effect on gravity.

pia04652-browse.jpg


wa:do
 

Krok

Active Member
There is only one other alternative.
Not true. Lots of alternatives. For example, some people believe that aliens brought life to the earth. Some of them say that aliens brought the first life, others say that aliens brought the different forms of life to the world. One person even suggested that the earth and life on it is just an experiment by mice.
Either nothing/chance/time did it, or God did it, or it was always here, or it made itself, or it’s not really here. There is no other views out there, this covers all angles. If nothing/chance/time is disproven, the only other best alternative is God did it.
No, as I said before, there's plenty of other alternatives. Aliens could have brought life here. That's the purpose of this thread, we need evidence for creation for it to be the alternative to evolution.

By the way, you still think that evolution is chance. This is not true. Natural selection is the exact opposite of chance.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
Jolly seems to think that the natural progression of events following the Laws of nature and physics is "chance". This is simply one of hundreds of pieces of misinformation and misunderstandings promoted by AiG and their ilk.
 

Walkntune

Well-Known Member
Gravity can be measured... we even have a map of where on Earth the gravity varies.

Because of the nature of the rocks, gravity isn't uniform around the planet, there are slight differences... elevation can also have a slight (but measurable) effect on gravity.

pia04652-browse.jpg


wa:do
[SIZE=-1]In keeping with this equation, human health was thought to depend on the integrity of the body structure. The integrity of the body structure depended on a relatively stable state of equilibrium (i.e., homeostasis) between the different but interdependent structural parts. In turn, homeostasis depended on a host of organic and inorganic chemicals. Whenever the body didn't function properly, structural defects arising out of chemical imbalances were blamed.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]*[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]To cure this problem and restore the needed homeostasis of the body, prescriptions were ordered involving sophisticated chemical complexes at increasingly larger dosages in order to trigger the body's defense and repair mechanisms. This approach led to what can be called "chemical medicine" with its many strengths and weaknesses.[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]*[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]Later in the century, neuropsychiatry demonstrated that small electric currents between specific points in the brain gave rise to the same behavioral changes that were observed with the ingestion of certain brain-stimulating chemicals. Other researchers found that small electric currents can stimulate cells to regenerate, tissue to repair itself and fractures to heal. Although the use of x-rays and diathermy have a long history in medicine, recent extensions to MRI scans all tend to indicate that the earlier three-part equation (shown above) was incomplete.[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]*[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]In the light of the electric current effects, a four-part equation was presented, the fourth part involving electric and magnetic fields:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]E/M[/SIZE]
Subtle Energy Actions and Physical Domain Correlations

I believe it would be foolish to dismiss the possibility of the force that is cause of gravity on large bodies to not have an effect on all bodies of mass.
Especially when most of the population of the world have a sense of this force in one way or another and have even learned to manipulate it intuitively.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
The "electricity" in the brain is a bit of a misnomer... the charge in the brain is caused by the movement of ions (sodium and potassium) in and out of cells not by electrons. The movement of electrons is genuine electricity.

We can measure this and even manipulate it... that is how we know what ions are responsible. The specific experiment that measures it is called "voltage clamping" and the experiment that started is playfully known as the "toothpaste experiment".

wa:do
 

Walkntune

Well-Known Member
The "electricity" in the brain is a bit of a misnomer... the charge in the brain is caused by the movement of ions (sodium and potassium) in and out of cells not by electrons. The movement of electrons is genuine electricity.

We can measure this and even manipulate it... that is how we know what ions are responsible. The specific experiment that measures it is called "voltage clamping" and the experiment that started is playfully known as the "toothpaste experiment".

wa:do

We are talking a bit more than electricity in the brain although this alone would be cause for me to suspect the bodies responses is more than chemical reactions.


[SIZE=-1]Early in this century, medicine saw living organisms as operating via the following interaction/reaction equation:[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]Function <-> Structure <-> Chemistry[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]In keeping with this equation, human health was thought to depend on the integrity of the body structure. The integrity of the body structure depended on a relatively stable state of equilibrium (i.e., homeostasis) between the different but interdependent structural parts. In turn, homeostasis depended on a host of organic and inorganic chemicals. Whenever the body didn't function properly, structural defects arising out of chemical imbalances were blamed.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]*[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]To cure this problem and restore the needed homeostasis of the body, prescriptions were ordered involving sophisticated chemical complexes at increasingly larger dosages in order to trigger the body's defense and repair mechanisms. This approach led to what can be called "chemical medicine" with its many strengths and weaknesses.[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]*[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]Later in the century, neuropsychiatry demonstrated that small electric currents between specific points in the brain gave rise to the same behavioral changes that were observed with the ingestion of certain brain-stimulating chemicals. Other researchers found that small electric currents can stimulate cells to regenerate, tissue to repair itself and fractures to heal. Although the use of x-rays and diathermy have a long history in medicine, recent extensions to MRI scans all tend to indicate that the earlier three-part equation (shown above) was incomplete.[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]*[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]In the light of the electric current effects, a four-part equation was presented, the fourth part involving electric and magnetic fields:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]E/M[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]Function <-> Structure <-> Chemistry <-> Fields[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]The body's electric and magnetic fields provide the necessary conditions for homeostasis at the chemical level. Detection of imbalances at the electric/magnetic field levels would be an early warning factor of coming potential disruptions in the chemical homeostasis condition, and which, if unchecked, would eventually result in repercussions at the body's functional level.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]*[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]Research and study of hypnosis and hypnotic affects revealed that the human body can exhibit truly remarkable feats of strength and endurance - attesting to an important linkage of body/mind, in which the mind can influence not only the body's structure and function, but also its chemistry and electric/magnetic fields.[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]*[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]Advancing research in psychotherapy revealed that certain chemical treatments induce specific mental states - while certain mental treatments influence specific chemical populations.[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]*[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]More recently, biofeedback techniques have shown that directed mind not only can control various autonomic body functions (such as skin temperature, pain, etc.) but can also repair the body.[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]*[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]Thus, a new five-part equation became necessary:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]E/M[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]Function <-> Structure <-> Chemistry <-> Fields <-> Mind[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]*[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]Well-controlled, remote influence experiments with healers, and experiments with psychokinesis, clairvoyance, remote viewing, homeopathy and many other phenomena, indicate the existence of processes inadequately understood. The nature of these processes extends beyond conventional knowledge of the physical domains of nature, and appear to involve emotional, spiritual and other intangible qualities.[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]*[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]These qualities should also enter an extend form of the five-part equation presented above. However, since we presently do not have clear definitions of these different qualities, they might temporarily be put into the category of SUBTLE ENERGIES. Preliminary research data indicate that the subtle energies somehow influence the electric and/or magnetic fields of the body, and which influences have demonstrable effects on its structure, function, chemistry, and the mind. The SUBTLE ENERGIES can include emotional, mental and spiritual qualities, but appear to operate in connection with physically intangible factors that can be called ETHERIC.[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]*[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]These qualities should also be entered into the equation:[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]E/M Subtle[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Function <-> Structure<->Chemistry<->Fields<->Energy[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]Fields[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]*[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]In conventional science, four forces are considered responsible for all observable phenomena in the universe:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The strong nuclear force;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The weak nuclear force;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The electromagnetic force: and[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The gravitational force.[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]These four forces characterize the purely physical domain very well. Thus, the "subtle energies" referred to above, and the subtle forces/effects they generate, are not necessarily weak - but rather constitute that large body of elusive energies and forces beyond the four accepted by today's physical science.[/SIZE]
 

David M

Well-Known Member
Created means God created stuff. He created the parts and how they go together. Creating the parts is the creating, designing is putting the parts together.


Or he created the universe and didn't need to intervene as things proceeded according to his plan.

So you believe God created and designed the universe but not species? So did chance create the species?


Created and designed as in enabled the process, yes. Created objects no.

Evolution created species, and evolution is not chance.

Also you being Christian and all, I’m sure you believe in the bible, right? How do you interpret the parts where it says God created the creatures according to their various kinds?


That creatures can be allocated into groupings and that the offspring of a given animal is very very similar to its parents. Which is what science says. The descenants of mammals will always be mammals, just as they will always be chordates.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
We are talking a bit more than electricity in the brain although this alone would be cause for me to suspect the bodies responses is more than chemical reactions.


[SIZE=-1]Early in this century, medicine saw living organisms as operating via the following interaction/reaction equation:[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]Function <-> Structure <-> Chemistry[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]In keeping with this equation, human health was thought to depend on the integrity of the body structure. The integrity of the body structure depended on a relatively stable state of equilibrium (i.e., homeostasis) between the different but interdependent structural parts. In turn, homeostasis depended on a host of organic and inorganic chemicals. Whenever the body didn't function properly, structural defects arising out of chemical imbalances were blamed.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]*[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]To cure this problem and restore the needed homeostasis of the body, prescriptions were ordered involving sophisticated chemical complexes at increasingly larger dosages in order to trigger the body's defense and repair mechanisms. This approach led to what can be called "chemical medicine" with its many strengths and weaknesses.[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]*[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]Later in the century, neuropsychiatry demonstrated that small electric currents between specific points in the brain gave rise to the same behavioral changes that were observed with the ingestion of certain brain-stimulating chemicals. Other researchers found that small electric currents can stimulate cells to regenerate, tissue to repair itself and fractures to heal. Although the use of x-rays and diathermy have a long history in medicine, recent extensions to MRI scans all tend to indicate that the earlier three-part equation (shown above) was incomplete.[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]*[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]In the light of the electric current effects, a four-part equation was presented, the fourth part involving electric and magnetic fields:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]E/M[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]Function <-> Structure <-> Chemistry <-> Fields[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]The body's electric and magnetic fields provide the necessary conditions for homeostasis at the chemical level. Detection of imbalances at the electric/magnetic field levels would be an early warning factor of coming potential disruptions in the chemical homeostasis condition, and which, if unchecked, would eventually result in repercussions at the body's functional level.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]*[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]Research and study of hypnosis and hypnotic affects revealed that the human body can exhibit truly remarkable feats of strength and endurance - attesting to an important linkage of body/mind, in which the mind can influence not only the body's structure and function, but also its chemistry and electric/magnetic fields.[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]*[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]Advancing research in psychotherapy revealed that certain chemical treatments induce specific mental states - while certain mental treatments influence specific chemical populations.[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]*[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]More recently, biofeedback techniques have shown that directed mind not only can control various autonomic body functions (such as skin temperature, pain, etc.) but can also repair the body.[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]*[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]Thus, a new five-part equation became necessary:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]E/M[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]Function <-> Structure <-> Chemistry <-> Fields <-> Mind[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]*[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]Well-controlled, remote influence experiments with healers, and experiments with psychokinesis, clairvoyance, remote viewing, homeopathy and many other phenomena, indicate the existence of processes inadequately understood. The nature of these processes extends beyond conventional knowledge of the physical domains of nature, and appear to involve emotional, spiritual and other intangible qualities.[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]*[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]These qualities should also enter an extend form of the five-part equation presented above. However, since we presently do not have clear definitions of these different qualities, they might temporarily be put into the category of SUBTLE ENERGIES. Preliminary research data indicate that the subtle energies somehow influence the electric and/or magnetic fields of the body, and which influences have demonstrable effects on its structure, function, chemistry, and the mind. The SUBTLE ENERGIES can include emotional, mental and spiritual qualities, but appear to operate in connection with physically intangible factors that can be called ETHERIC.[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]*[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]These qualities should also be entered into the equation:[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]E/M Subtle[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Function <-> Structure<->Chemistry<->Fields<->Energy[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]Fields[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]*[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]In conventional science, four forces are considered responsible for all observable phenomena in the universe:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The strong nuclear force;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The weak nuclear force;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The electromagnetic force: and[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The gravitational force.[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]These four forces characterize the purely physical domain very well. Thus, the "subtle energies" referred to above, and the subtle forces/effects they generate, are not necessarily weak - but rather constitute that large body of elusive energies and forces beyond the four accepted by today's physical science.[/SIZE]
First, you should credit William A. Tiller, Ph.D, Materials Science and Engineering for your above post.

Second, Tiller's hypothesis has not yet been independently verified. Nor has he shown an actual measurement of his proposed "elusive energies"
 

Walkntune

Well-Known Member
First, you should credit William A. Tiller, Ph.D, Materials Science and Engineering for your above post.

Second, Tiller's hypothesis has not yet been independently verified. Nor has he shown an actual measurement of his proposed "elusive energies"
Well first I put the link on post 769 so obviously was not trying to hide or take his credit.
I just assumed from your post you didn't read it so I brought out an interesting point.

Second stand on what you stand on. I already came to an intuitive understanding before i knew of such studies and is a strong conformation for myself.
We already know that the facts science stands on today our limited,don't have the answers and will change. For me this is enough to be open instead of closed.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
It is measured in gravity and it is measured in humans and anything else that has a mass (or no mass)to it.It always is and always exists


Yes, it is well known that Fg = G*m1*m2/d^2,
Fg &#8801; the force of gravitational attraction
m1 &#8801; mass 1
m2 &#8801; mass 2
d &#8801; distance from center to center between m1 and m2
G &#8801; Universal Gravitational Constant

And it is well known that Gravity is one of the strongest forces in the Universe. That it is Gravity that caused the first matter to clump together into the first stars.

So yes, Gravity is indeed A "Creative Force", however I still do not see how this relates to your previous attempts to explain your concept of THE "Creative Force".

But, it did not exist until the first energy became the first matter.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
David_M

I have one simple question for you. Do you believe God created and designed THIS universe? Yes or no?

You do realize that this is completely irrelevant to our discussion, right? Tell you what. Let's all agree, for the purpose of this thread, that He did. Now let's go about figuring out how. That is what science is for. Science can assume that God created all things, or not, because science works either way. So try to remember that key word (one many creationists find difficult to retain) HOW.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
David_M

Created means God created stuff. He created the parts and how they go together. Creating the parts is the creating, designing is putting the parts together.
Not necessarily. A really brilliant God could just set the whole system up so that it would work, including generating new parts, and then watch it roll out. Like a computer programmer.

So you believe God created and designed the universe but not species? So did chance create the species?
No. It has been conclusively shown that new species emerge from existing species by descent with modification plus natural selection. Would you like me to explain this to you in more detail in clear and simple terms?
 
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