Creationists, Just How Strong IS Your Belief?

[Skwim]

Say that for years your preacher has been a staunch creationist, sometimes speaking out against the silliness of evolution and its farfetched claims and countless errors. You silently applauded his words and felt reassured in your agreement, but then one weekend he delivers a sermon in which he tells you that after much heartfelt deliberation and prayer he was motivated by god to conclude that evolution was true, and that not only has it been going on for millions of years, but continues to operate today. Would his god-inspired word be enough to change your mind? Or is the concept of creationism far too powerful to be negated by the god-inspired conclusion of your earthly leader? Can the claims of inspired truth by your chosen religious leader only go so far before they're ignored? IOW, will creationism will always trump any claims of its untruth, no matter where they come from?


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[InChrist]

I don't think most Christians who believe in creation as presented in the scriptures rest their belief solely in a teacher or pastor. First thing to discover is whether this change of mind and sermon was God-inspired, which I doubt it would be, since God does not contradict His already revealed word.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Say that for years your preacher has been a staunch creationist, sometimes speaking out against the silliness of evolution and its farfetched claims and countless errors. You silently applauded his words and felt reassured in your agreement, but then one weekend he delivers a sermon in which he tells you that after much heartfelt deliberation and prayer he was motivated by god to conclude that evolution was true, and that not only has it been going on for millions of years, but continues to operate today. Would his god-inspired word be enough to change your mind? Or is the concept of creationism far too powerful to be negated by the god-inspired conclusion of your earthly leader? Can the claims of inspired truth by your chosen religious leader only go so far before they're ignored? IOW, will creationism will always trump any claims of its untruth, no matter where they come from?


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I would applaud the preacher for finally stopping being a liar. God, after all, hates liars. Proverbs 6:16

 

[savagewind]

I don't understand the question.

There is the beginning.
There is the evolution of space and matter.
There is the evolution of the life on Earth.

My belief that God existed before the beginning is unbreakable.

Nobody is ever going to know for sure if life was designed or not designed and I do not care about that.

 

[Axe Elf]

I would applaud the preacher for finally stopping being a liar. God, after all, hates liars. Proverbs 6:16

A statement is not a lie if the person making it believes it to be true. It may still be a false statement, but a lie has more to do with the intention of the teller to deceive than it does with the truth of the statement itself. So God may hate liars, but He probly has compassion upon those who just don't understand completely.

 

[Subduction Zone]

A statement is not a lie if the person making it believes it to be true. It may still be a false statement, but a lie has more to do with the intention of the teller to deceive than it does with the truth of the statement itself. So God may hate liars, but He probly has compassion upon those who just don't understand completely.

A statement may not be a lie, since part of a statement being a lie is an intent to deceive. But it still may be a breaking of the Ninth Commandment. The Ninth Commandment is a prohibition on false testimony. If a person swears to something that is wrong against another person, whether the person knows it to be wrong or not, is a bearing of false witness. That puts a huge burden of proof upon any Christian making a statement against another. If one cannot prove one's case as a Christian one should not make a statement against others.

 

[Axe Elf]

A statement may not be a lie, since part of a statement being a lie is an intent to deceive. But it still may be a breaking of the Ninth Commandment. The Ninth Commandment is a prohibition on false testimony. If a person swears to something that is wrong against another person, whether the person knows it to be wrong or not, is a bearing of false witness. That puts a huge burden of proof upon any Christian making a statement against another. If one cannot prove one's case as a Christian one should not make a statement against others.

It should be clear from the context of the conversation that Sandy would be glad that the preacher stopped "lying" about creationism, and that the situation had nothing to do with testifying against another Christian.

Do you just go around hijacking threads with minutiae that isn't even germane to the conversation at hand? You did this with one of my other posts already too, and I've only been here a couple of days.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It should be clear from the context of the conversation that Sandy would be glad that the preacher stopped "lying" about creationism, and that the situation had nothing to do with testifying against another Christian.

Do you just go around hijacking threads with minutiae that isn't even germane to the conversation at hand? You did this with one of my other posts already too, and I've only been here a couple of days.

Most preachers have had their errors explained to them. They are lying. And I see that you do not understand the Ninth Commandment either. There is nothing about it that limits it to Christians testifying about Christians. Lastly there was no hijacking. Creationism is a subject of this thread. Perhaps you merely have a hard time following a conversation. It is wise not to make claims about others, especially those that you cannot support if you claim to be a Christian. Once again, remember the Ninth Commandment.

 

[Audie]

O

I don't think most Christians who believe in creation as presented in the scriptures rest their belief solely in a teacher or pastor. First thing to discover is whether this change of mind and sermon was God-inspired, which I doubt it would be, since God does not contradict His already revealed word.

So according to you and god, evolution is a false theory?

 

[Jose Fly]

My parents are old-school Baptists and have attended a Baptist church since before I was born. Years ago their pastor left (I think he retired) and the Baptist organization started sending in temporary pastors on a trial basis. One would come in, serve as pastor for about a month, and then the elders would meet and decide if they wanted to keep him.

During that time I was talking to my mom over the phone and she started telling me about how one of these temporary pastors had a degree in biology and was a "Darwinist" (her words). He actually spent one Sunday preaching that evolution was not contrary to scripture and that good honest Christians should never fear whatever reality science uncovers....after all he said, science is one of God's gifts.

My mom was quite excited for me to meet him, but it never happened, mostly because I live on the other side of the country. But it was also because at the end of the month, the elders voted to not keep him on and they specifically cited his being an "evolutionist" as the main reason.

 

[Audie]

Most preachers have had their errors explained to them. They are lying. And I see that you do not understand the Ninth Commandment either. There is nothing about it that limits it to Christians testifying about Christians. Lastly there was no hijacking. Creationism is a subject of this thread. Perhaps you merely have a hard time following a conversation. It is wise not to make claims about others, especially those that you cannot support if you claim to be a Christian. Once again, remember the Ninth Commandment.

There are shades of grey between night and day, my friend.

 

[InChrist]

O


So according to you and god, evolution is a false theory?

That depends on what you mean by evolution.
If you mean macro, large scale evolution, the unobserved phenomenon entailing major evolutionary changes over long periods of time resulting in the origin of new types of organisms from previously existing, but different, with entirely new genetic information added to a genome ...then I believe it is false. If by theory of evolution you mean that all life evolved from a common primordial ancestor, then again I believe it is false. I won't speak for God, but I think His words in the scriptures speak on the subject.

 

[Audie]

That depends on what you mean by evolution.
If you mean macro, large scale evolution, the unobserved phenomenon entailing major evolutionary changes over long periods of time resulting in the origin of new types of organisms from previously existing, but different, with entirely new genetic information added to a genome ...then I believe it is false. If by theory of evolution you mean that all life evolved from a common primordial ancestor, then again I believe it is false. I won't speak for God, but I think His words in the scriptures speak on the subject.

By evolution, I am not likely to mean your idea of it, but
ok, you and god think it is a false theory.

I guess I could ask you you think it is that if it is false,
nobody has been able to find any way to demonstrate that, but you may not be into that.

 

[Chris Lovel]

That depends on what you mean by evolution.
If you mean macro, large scale evolution, the unobserved phenomenon entailing major evolutionary changes over long periods of time resulting in the origin of new types of organisms from previously existing, but different, with entirely new genetic information added to a genome ...then I believe it is false. If by theory of evolution you mean that all life evolved from a common primordial ancestor, then again I believe it is false. I won't speak for God, but I think His words in the scriptures speak on the subject.

It is naive to believe everything written in the Bible because it is not a reliable source of information. Those that wrote the text had no knowledge of subjects like biology, physiology or any of the modern sciences so they had to make up a myth that God did everything in 7 days. They did not know any better. Now, let us look at the Bible, for a start it has over 400 conflicting passages, check it out why don't you. Next, have you noticed thatall of the accounts and texts were written over 70 years after the events. That means there was nobody recording the speeches and events in any manner at the time. That means the Bible is mostly here-say, not allowed as evidence or a reliable source of information. Blind adherence to any book renders religion void of spirit.

 

[Audie]

A statement is not a lie if the person making it believes it to be true. It may still be a false statement, but a lie has more to do with the intention of the teller to deceive than it does with the truth of the statement itself. So God may hate liars, but He probly has compassion upon those who just don't understand completely.

Any thoughts on the problem with willful ignorance and negligence?

We note that Christians will say that once I've heard the gospel, its my own fault if I am not saved.

Maybe if I threw rocks at missionaries if they approached, held my hands over my ears etc, and otherwise avoided hearing the word, would that help out in the end, in your estimation?

 

[Subduction Zone]

That depends on what you mean by evolution.
If you mean macro, large scale evolution, the unobserved phenomenon entailing major evolutionary changes over long periods of time resulting in the origin of new types of organisms from previously existing, but different, with entirely new genetic information added to a genome ...then I believe it is false. If by theory of evolution you mean that all life evolved from a common primordial ancestor, then again I believe it is false. I won't speak for God, but I think His words in the scriptures speak on the subject.

But it has been observed. You are merely using a false and overly limited definition of "observed".

 

[Skwim]

That depends on what you mean by evolution.
If you mean macro, large scale evolution, the unobserved phenomenon entailing major evolutionary changes over long periods of time resulting in the origin of new types of organisms from previously existing, but different, with entirely new genetic information added to a genome ...then I believe it is false.

"Macro-evolution," does not imply "large scale" evolution, but simply evolution involving a progression of change at or above the rank of species that typically results in a new species.

"Types" of organisms? What is a type of organism?

"The unobserved phenomenon." Of course this isn't what's necessarily meant. Speciation, has been observed. For evidence, simply Google it.

If by theory of evolution you mean that all life evolved from a common primordial ancestor, then again I believe it is false.

Fortunately, that's not what is meant by "theory of evolution." There is no one theory of evolution, but many theories as to how it works; and among these theories is the notion that evolution is considered to have begun with some common ancestor.

I won't speak for God, but I think His words in the scriptures speak on the subject.

So you don't think god could have set evolution in motion as a means to populate earth with life? That instead he saw the wisdom in individually creating 5,000+ species of grasshoppers, 40,000 species of bugs, and 53,000 to 110,000 species of mushrooms? Gotta wonder what was going through his mind at the time he decided the world actually needed such an excessive variety of life. One would think four or five species of grasshoppers would suffice, and that a couple dozen species of bugs would be enough. FYI, It's estimated that earth has about 8.7 million species (give or take 1.3 million).
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[Audie]

"Macro-evolution," does not imply "large scale" evolution, but simply evolution involving a progression of change at or above the rank of species that typically results in a new species.

"Types" of organisms? What is a type of organism?

"The unobserved phenomenon." Of course this isn't what's necessarily meant. Speciation, has been observed. For evidence, simply Google it.


Fortunately, that's not what is meant by "theory of evolution." There is no one theory of evolution, but many theories as to how it works; and among these theories is the notion that evolution is considered to have begun with some common ancestor.


So you don't think god could have set evolution in motion as a means to populate earth with life? That instead he saw the wisdom in individually creating 5,000+ species of grasshoppers, 40,000 species of bugs, and 53,000 to 110,000 species of mushrooms? Gotta wonder what was going through his mind at the time he decided the world actually needed such an excessive variety of life. One would think four or five species of grasshoppers would suffice, and that a couple dozen species of bugs would be enough. FYI, It's estimated that earth has about 8.7 million species (give or take 1.3 million).

.

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Not to mentionize that they figure that is only about
1% or so of all the species that have ever existed.


A great British entomologist who had classified hundreds of species of beetles, perhaps the most widely varying form of life on Earth. Late in his career, he spoke to a group of churchgoers about his work. Feeling metaphysical, they asked him to reflect on what science had taught him about the mind of God.

“I’ve deduced,” he replied, “that God is incredibly fond of beetles.”

 

[InChrist]

"Macro-evolution," does not imply "large scale" evolution, but simply evolution involving a progression of change at or above the rank of species that typically results in a new species.

"Types" of organisms? What is a type of organism?

"The unobserved phenomenon." Of course this isn't what's necessarily meant. Speciation, has been observed. For evidence, simply Google it.
.

Okay, but specification does not equal the evolution.
Speciation, Yes; Evolution, No

Fortunately, that's not what is meant by "theory of evolution." There is no one theory of evolution, but many theories as to how it works; and among these theories is the notion that evolution is considered to have begun with some common ancestor..

I know that the origin of life is not technically a part of the theory of evolution, but many who accept evolution have this as their foundational assumption. and many Christians seem to lump it in there, too.

So you don't think god could have set evolution in motion as a means to populate earth with life? That instead he saw the wisdom in individually creating 5,000+ species of grasshoppers, 40,000 species of bugs, and 53,000 to 110,000 species of mushrooms? Gotta wonder what was going through his mind at the time he decided the world actually needed such an excessive variety of life. One would think four or five species of grasshoppers would suffice, and that a couple dozen species of bugs would be enough. FYI, It's estimated that earth has about 8.7 million species (give or take 1.3 million).
.

.

I do think God set evolution in motion within "kinds" of animals and plants, so I don't think God individually created 5,000+ species of grasshoppers, 40,000 species of bugs, and 53,000 to 110,000 species of mushrooms. The Bible describes God creating “kinds” that reproduce within their kind. This is a group that can reproduce with one another. I believe God put a huge amount of variety into the DNA of each kind so they could diversify and fill the earth. This is what we observe; kinds reproduce their own kind.

 

[Audie]

Okay, but specification does not equal the evolution.
Speciation, Yes; Evolution, No

I know that the origin of life is not technically a part of the theory of evolution, but many who accept evolution have this as their foundational assumption. and many Christians seem to lump it in there, too.

I do think God set evolution in motion within "kinds" of animals and plants, so I don't think God individually created 5,000+ species of grasshoppers, 40,000 species of bugs, and 53,000 to 110,000 species of mushrooms. The Bible describes God creating “kinds” that reproduce within their kind. This is a group that can reproduce with one another. I believe God put a huge amount of variety into the DNA of each kind so they could diversify and fill the earth. This is what we observe; kinds reproduce their own kind.

Whatever a "kind" may be.

In any event, would you say that "kinds" reproduce
exactly after their own?

Or, put in normal English of the 21st century,
are offspring identical to their parents?