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Creationists please define Kind

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Dirty Penguin I have already spoken to this..I am not here to educate you.

Hey I was interested in how you applied "kinds" to the various species on the planet. It's your definition. Obviously if your definition doesn't square with the diversity of the species on the planet then surly you could see why clarification is needed.

Wiki: Several studies support the thylacine as being a basal member of the Dasyuromorphia and that the Tasmanian devil is its closest living relative. However, research published in Genome Research in January 2009 suggests that the numbat may be more basal than the devil and more closely related to the thylacine.[22]

†Thylacinidae
Dasyuridae
Myrmecobiidae

I'd say the three families under Dasyuromorphia are kinds, one has gone extinct, according to Wiki.


It's definitely a member species but it's a stretch to lump them as "kinds". Kinds of what?

Besides treatment of the outer ovum membrane to allow anything is not 'ability to fertilize'.

Are we back to Chimp/human fertilization? We meet your definition #1 so definition #2 is void. Chimpanzees, being our closest ancestor, have helped us to research and understand HIV, seeing as though they're genetically similar.

I'll say the same thing to you as I did PW...Too bad your researchers did not get it righ until 2009, and who knows if it is correct now.

This is too funny. In order for you to even make some sort of sense as to what a "kind" is you have to take and reinterpret the current scientific data in order to make it fit. If it wasn't for biologist classifying the Thylacine as a marsupial creationist would probably think it was a ("kind" of dog) because back in the day that's what people associated it with, assuming it was similar to a fox.
 

David M

Well-Known Member
Again this forum cannot accept their own research. It was set up well enough that sperm entered the egg but fusion of gametes did NOT occur. You have produced nothing better. Get it?
No, you are the one who is unable to understand the words in the quotes you paste.

NO YOU NOTE..the experiment was set up well enough that the sperm ENTERED but WOULD NOT ATTACH to the Zona. So basically you are woffling on for nothing.
What your paste actually said was "would not even attach to the zona surface of non-hominoid primates" that is not a group that includes chimpanzees and gibbons.

Your paste stated that the sperm would not only attach to the zona of a Gibbon but would penetrate the zona pellucida. A Gibbon is a hominoid primate (and the one least related to us). So the experimant showed that human sperm would attach to, and penetrate the zona of at least 1 non-human species.

Once again your own pasted text shows that the statement above is incorrect.

Do you not read what you paste? Or are you going to continue to pretend that the stuff you pasted didn't clearly show that human sperm will attach to, and penetrate, the zona of another member of the family Hominoidea?

No it is not. They have higlighted the diffeernces, as well as plainly shown fertilzation cannot occur. It is you lot that maintain this sick fettish.
No they didn't because that article is talking about attachment to the zona (which they showed did occur in Gibbons. Nowhere in that article do they indicate whether they were even testing for fertilisation and as they were testing Gibbons it is not a test for chimps in any case because Gibbons are not chimps.

You truly are showing your colours with your desperation and extremely non scientific stance. Well done!
This behaviour is entirely yours, time and again you post stuff and then make claims about the materal that is not supported by the material.

Epigenetic analysis of human spermatozoa after their injection into ovulated mouse oocytes 2007
Yes. Humans are not interfertile with mice, it would be a stunning discovery if they were because, as I pointed out to you, a full 20% of mice genes have no homologues with human genes.

What you have still failed to do is produce any study using modern science (rather than 1920's science) where tests were made to check for fertilisation of a human/chimp sperm/ova. All you have produced is a study that shows that human sperm does attach to the zona of 1 member of the Hominoidea which strongly implies it will attach to the zona of other Hominoidea, especially the ones that are gentically closer to us than Gibbons.
 
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sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
A simple question if I may. Why does a description of Biblical kinds have to deliniate for species?
To the extent that kinds are defined by their ability of breeding true to themselves without variation, the closest analogue to reality would be in species.
I see nothing in the Biblical text that shows that kinds are defined by their ability within themselves, ie. "winged fowl" covers a lot of species that cannot interbreed.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
I see nothing in the Biblical text that shows that kinds are defined by their ability within themselves, ie. "winged fowl" covers a lot of species that cannot interbreed.
I think the broader the "kind" is the better. I also think the "let the earth bring forth" part of the scripture is far too overlooked.
How else shall the "earth bring forth" other than via evolution?

wa:do
 
fantôme profane;2322667 said:
A Precambrian human would disprove the theory of evolution. I say that without reservation. I want to go on record saying that. If anyone found human fossil remains that could be dated to a Precambrian era I would immediately reject the theory of evolution in its totality. Is that a definite enough statement for you? If you want to save this so you can quote it back to me if such a discovery were to be made please do.

But this still would not be evidence of Creationism.

Yes such a find would most immediately call into question the atomic dating methods utilized and other cornerstones of evolutionary theory. Then again, since it would uproot so many very strong stable scientific trees I'd have to consider it possible evidence of time travel by future humans, unless a bunch of mammals were found in Precambrian strata - any rich creationists out there wanna give me odds on such a find actually happening?
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
Yes such a find would most immediately call into question the atomic dating methods utilized and other cornerstones of evolutionary theory. Then again, since it would uproot so many very strong stable scientific trees I'd have to consider it possible evidence of time travel by future humans, unless a bunch of mammals were found in Precambrian strata - any rich creationists out there wanna give me odds on such a find actually happening?
That is a neat idea. All any creationist needs to do if they want to disprove evolution is invent a time machine, go back to the Precambrian, and get themselves fossilized.
 

newhope101

Active Member
Hey I was interested in how you applied "kinds" to the various species on the planet. It's your definition. Obviously if your definition doesn't square with the diversity of the species on the planet then surly you could see why clarification is needed.
The thing is your species are simply in kind variations that have been given different names



It's definitely a member species but it's a stretch to lump them as "kinds". Kinds of what? Kinds of organisms created individually.



Are we back to Chimp/human fertilization? We meet your definition #1 so definition #2 is void. Chimpanzees, being our closest ancestor, have helped us to research and understand HIV, seeing as though they're genetically similar.
HIV has nothing to do with my definition. There is research that shows chimps and humans cannot reach fertilization. You lot refused to accept it like the great scientists you pretend to be


This is too funny. In order for you to even make some sort of sense as to what a "kind" is you have to take and reinterpret the current scientific data in order to make it fit. If it wasn't for biologist classifying the Thylacine as a marsupial creationist would probably think it was a ("kind" of dog) because back in the day that's what people associated it with, assuming it was similar to a fox.

No absolutely wrong. Creationists would not be looking for ancestry. They would be looking for variation within kinds. Hence their hypothesis of the evidence would be unlike yours.

What you are correct about is that I am reliant on flawed hypothesis of fossils to work with that has been confused by the presumption of ancestry. That is a shame.

So basically your whole evolution concept hangs on speices diverging so much that they can no longer successfully mate. Yet some sickos still suggest we can even to produce infertile progeny, despite research to the contrary.

Some of your researchers want to put chimps into the genus homo due to genetic similarity. That was it for me, pal. Look to any other genus and the similarity between species that reside at that rank. Now think of chimps and humans. If all you see are four limbs and a head then say yes we are similar there really is no more that can be said to save you. Humans, despite all the rattle, are very different to chimps both morphologiclly and in the formation of reasoning. This is absurd, and demonstrates further that your researchers are lost in the forrest and cannot see the forest for the trees getting in the way.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
The thing is your species are simply in kind variations that have been given different names

Species is the best classification in regards to biological diversity. Using the word "kind" and lumping everything into one group (per se) is vague and sloppy.

A kind must meet at least one of the two criteria
1. A kind is a group of organisms that share 99.9% similarity, based on single-nucleotide polymorphisms.

HIV has nothing to do with my definition.

Oh, but it does. We're genetically similar. No other species on the planet can contract HIV other than certain primates and humans. No other non-primate species on the planet can be infected by or transmit HIV to humans. Certain primates can because of this genetic similarity.

HIV Originated With Monkeys, Not Chimps, Study Finds
"Scientists now say that the simian immunodeficiency virus (SIV) in chimpanzees (Pan troglodytes), which is believed to have been transmitted to humans to become HIV-1—the virus that causes AIDS—didn't start its life in chimps. Instead, it was a product of separate viruses jumping from different monkey species into chimps, where they recombined to form a hybrid virus, according to a new study."

"Because of the similarity between chimpanzees and humans, any virus that successfully adapts to spreading among chimps would be a candidate for a further jump to humans—a potential HIV-3," said Paul Sharp of the Institute of Genetics at University of Nottingham in England, who led the study."

"The new findings thus show that humans are not the only primate species to acquire two different immunodeficiency viruses by cross-species transmission."

No absolutely wrong. Creationists would not be looking for ancestry. They would be looking for variation within kinds. Hence their hypothesis of the evidence would be unlike yours.

I agree which is why creationist need to stay out of science. Biology is about the study of life. It also studies how life is related. If "creation scientist" aren't looking to do that then they have no business in science.

What you are correct about is that I am reliant on flawed hypothesis of fossils to work with that has been confused by the presumption of ancestry. That is a shame.

Then what "creation scientist" need to do is "Falsify" the excepted evidence. It's easy for you the play scientist online at a bulletin board and twist the current evidence to suit your purpose but it's another thing altogether to "Falsify" the evidence. It would actually take...doing some actual research on your researchers parts. To date they have not done this....now that's a shame.

Some of your researchers want to put chimps into the genus homo due to genetic similarity.

Ok, so you do agree that we are genetically similar? Here I go thinking you didn't think we were genetically similar. Once again...we meet your criteria number #1.

Look to any other genus and the similarity between species that reside at that rank. Now think of chimps and humans. If all you see are four limbs and a head then say yes we are similar there really is no more that can be said to save you.

OK, so you (don't) think we're genetically similar. Which one is it?

Humans, despite all the rattle, are very different to chimps both morphologiclly

I agree there are some morphological difference but again, the difference between you and I is due to our evolutionary history I don't expect them all to be exactly alike. Chimpanzees and Human anatomy is more alike than different. If you think they're not then please elaborate (with scientific evidence).

and in the formation of reasoning. This is absurd, and demonstrates further that your researchers are lost in the forrest and cannot see the forest for the trees getting in the way.

Depending on your understanding of (reasoning). Maybe you can elaborate on this one as well.
 
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painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
What is interesting is that "variation within kind" is so vague it can mean just about anything.

artiodactyla.gif


marsupial-big-772924.jpg


wa:do
 
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