• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Creationists, please provide evidence

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
fantôme profane;2304045 said:
Before you do that could you explain how this inconsistency could be interpreted as evidence for creationism?

Or I will make it easy for you, just post anything that could be interpreted as evidence for creationism.

Yes, like for example:
God created everything in such and such a specific way that causes taxonomy to be very confusing and difficult. Therefore, whenever there is a disagreement about taxonomy or cladistics, this is evidence that God created living things in just that specific manner.

Again, not that this thread is about ToE, but ToE does predict that taxonomy will be difficult and ambiguous, and explains why. Therefore, as usual, newhope's evidence supports ToE.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Let me try to help. The closest we got to a hypothesis is that God created organisms in separate kinds. Can we generate any predictions from this hypothesis? And I think I recall from another thread that for newhope, a "kind" is a family, except for some unknown reason in the case of humans, when it's a species. I don't know why.

So we should predict, I would guess, that families of organisms would be completely different from each other, with no particular relationship to each other, without similar features, with no particular pattern of homologies or vestigial features.

We would also predict, would we not, that taxonomy of families would be extremely clear and unambiguous?

Anything else?
 
well, i think that its probably going to take another 171 pages so in the mean time, lets give newhope a chance to back her taxonomy arguement up.
 

newhope101

Active Member
Yes, like for example:
God created everything in such and such a specific way that causes taxonomy to be very confusing and difficult. Therefore, whenever there is a disagreement about taxonomy or cladistics, this is evidence that God created living things in just that specific manner.

Again, not that this thread is about ToE, but ToE does predict that taxonomy will be difficult and ambiguous, and explains why. Therefore, as usual, newhope's evidence supports ToE.

God did not create everything to be confusing. It is researchers trying to turn evidence into an evolutionary support that makes it all confusing for you. It's like talking to a brick wall. If there is little test of falibility you do not have a science at all. You cannot grasp this fact. Evos predicted smooth evolution and this was not found. They thought life would be very genetically different..it wasn't. Darwin predicted smooth transitions. Darwin was wrong. There is no test of falibility. And I'll say this again,,if you found a precambrian mammal or human you would still come up with some theory as to how this 'evolved'.

I see common ancestry of all species in your evidence and this IS creative evidence. It is an assumption not based on facts that there was cohorts for anything.

Hasn't evolution been cruel for you. You'd think of all the speices on the earth at least one of them might have been considerate enough to leave some evidence of other females or males. But darn...in every species not one has maintained any evidence of cohorts. In every line ALL other ancestors disappeared. This sounds like a bedtime story and not a good one at that.

Then there the minimum viable population which is meant to be 10,000. One of the magical numbers you've dreamed up with your probabilities. So how do you reckon those first cells went as a species? or doesn't that count?


Current tree of life showing horizontal gene transfers

Importance in evolution
Horizontal gene transfer is a potential confounding factor in inferring phylogenetic trees based on the sequence of one gene.[28] For example, given two distantly related bacteria that have exchanged a gene a phylogenetic tree including those species will show them to be closely related because that gene is the same even though most other genes are dissimilar. For this reason it is often ideal to use other information to infer robust phylogenies such as the presence or absence of genes or, more commonly, to include as wide a range of genes for phylogenetic analysis as possible.
For example, the most common gene to be used for constructing phylogenetic relationships in prokaryotes is the 16s rRNA gene since its sequences tend to be conserved among members with close phylogenetic distances, but variable enough that differences can be measured. However, in recent years it has also been argued that 16s rRNA genes can also be horizontally transferred. Although this may be infrequent the validity of 16s rRNA-constructed phylogenetic trees must be reevaluated.[citation needed]
Biologist Johann Peter Gogarten suggests "the original metaphor of a tree no longer fits the data from recent genome research" therefore "biologists should use the metaphor of a mosaic to describe the different histories combined in individual genomes and use the metaphor of a net to visualize the rich exchange and cooperative effects of HGT among microbes."[9] There exist several methods to infer such phylogenetic networks.
Using single genes as phylogenetic markers, it is difficult to trace organismal phylogeny in the presence of horizontal gene transfer. Combining the simple coalescence model of cladogenesis with rare HGT horizontal gene transfer events suggest there was no single most recent common ancestor that contained all of the genes ancestral to those shared among the three domains of life. Each contemporary molecule has its own history and traces back to an individual molecule cenancestor. However, these molecular ancestors were likely to be present in different organisms at different times."[9]

So you see above..I think your researchers are grabbing at straws trying to pull this ancestry together. Similar genes can be reflective of inhabiting same environments, eating similar foods, being exposed to the same virus.

Now you've come up with many cells that arose individually and apparently transfered genes to each other. So even though they arose individually, they were still biologically similar enough to effectively transfer genes. What does that tell you? It tells me that when life arises on this planet there is only one blueprint to follow. Otherwise the individual life would have been so different in biological structure that gene transfer should not have occured. What you are seeing is similarity due to other factors other than ancestry. So both of your models of single cell or multi cells arising makes no sence one way or the other.

There has been no evolution of genes and this is what was expected. The findings of such similarity beween species was surprising initially. Then of course that prediction went out the window and it was simailarity that supported Toe.

What you call similarity is not similarity at all. Each gene that you say is shared with other creatures is very different in other creatures and the same gene performs different functions in different species. Even in our own bodies the same dna 'knows' to produce an eye, a leg or a nervous system. The fact that all life appears to have similar genes, that aren't similar at all, shows God used a very clever blueprint to create life.

Then there's Ardi, who to me appears to be an evolutionary freak. She changed the look of things for evos. All life has some advantage. Ardi does not, in her current representation, have any advantage. She is not adept at bipedal walking and she cannot swing through trees, she doesn't appear to have the might of a gorilla. Ardi appears to have been very vulnerable to predators with no evolutionary advantage. I think Ardi has been misrepresented in some way, and has nothing to do with the ancestry of humans, just like Lucy.

So now with Ardi knuckle walking arose individually in gorrillas, orangutangs and chimps. You also say that humans are 99% similar chimps, using one method of comparison, another more holistic view suggests 30%. The thing is, these chimps underwent huge changes in morphology to knucklewalking tree swingers and humans grew the ability to reason. There should be loads of differences between us. The fact that science has not found them yet tells me science has a long way to go.

Really to sum up, I do not believe that your researcher really know what they are looking at yet, and continue to clutch at any straw.
 
Last edited:

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
God did not create everything to be confusing. It is researchers trying to turn evidence into an evolutionary support that makes it all confusing for you.
Oh, I thought you were saying it's confusing.
It's like talking to a brick wall.
I couldn't agree more.
If there is little test of falibility you do not have a science at all.
What's falibility?
You cannot grasp this fact.
I can't, because I don't know what falibility is.
Evos predicted smooth evolution and this was not found.
What does "smooth evolution" mean?
They thought life would be very genetically different..it wasn't.
Different from what?
Darwin predicted smooth transitions.
Are you talking about punctuated equilibrium? Pretty cool, isn't it?
Darwin was wrong. There is no test of falibility.
What is falibility?
And I'll say this again,,if you found a precambrian mammal or human you would still come up with some theory as to how this 'evolved'.
Read minds much?
I see common ancestry of all species in your evidence and this IS creative evidence.
Yes, you're right. As ToE says, there is common ancestry for all things. We agree on that.
It is an assumption not based on facts that there was cohorts for anything.
I don't know what you mean here. What do cohorts have to do with it?

Hasn't evolution been cruel for you. You'd think of all the speices on the earth at least one of them might have been considerate enough to leave some evidence of other females or males.
What other females or males? What are you talking about?
But darn...in every species not one has maintained any evidence of cohorts.
I don't follow you.
In every line ALL other ancestors disappeared.
Yes, species go extinct. This is crucial to ToE.
This sounds like a bedtime story and not a good one at that.
So do most of your posts.

Then there the minimum viable population which is meant to be 10,000. One of the magical numbers you've dreamed up with your probabilities. So how do you reckon those first cells went as a species? or doesn't that count?
Your posts are becoming harder and harder to understand. Maybe it's because they don't address the thread topic?

I
mportance in evolution
Horizontal gene transfer is a potential confounding factor in inferring phylogenetic trees based on the sequence of one gene.[28] For example, given two distantly related bacteria that have exchanged a gene a phylogenetic tree including those species will show them to be closely related because that gene is the same even though most other genes are dissimilar. For this reason it is often ideal to use other information to infer robust phylogenies such as the presence or absence of genes or, more commonly, to include as wide a range of genes for phylogenetic analysis as possible.
For example, the most common gene to be used for constructing phylogenetic relationships in prokaryotes is the 16s rRNA gene since its sequences tend to be conserved among members with close phylogenetic distances, but variable enough that differences can be measured. However, in recent years it has also been argued that 16s rRNA genes can also be horizontally transferred. Although this may be infrequent the validity of 16s rRNA-constructed phylogenetic trees must be reevaluated.[citation needed]
Biologist Johann Peter Gogarten suggests "the original metaphor of a tree no longer fits the data from recent genome research" therefore "biologists should use the metaphor of a mosaic to describe the different histories combined in individual genomes and use the metaphor of a net to visualize the rich exchange and cooperative effects of HGT among microbes."[9] There exist several methods to infer such phylogenetic networks.
Using single genes as phylogenetic markers, it is difficult to trace organismal phylogeny in the presence of horizontal gene transfer. Combining the simple coalescence model of cladogenesis with rare HGT horizontal gene transfer events suggest there was no single most recent common ancestor that contained all of the genes ancestral to those shared among the three domains of life. Each contemporary molecule has its own history and traces back to an individual molecule cenancestor. However, these molecular ancestors were likely to be present in different organisms at different times."[9]
Isn't evolution fascinating?
So you see above..I think your researchers are grabbing at straws trying to pull this ancestry together. Similar genes can be reflective of inhabiting same environments, eating similar foods, being exposed to the same virus.
So you're advocating Lamarkism?

Wait, is this an actual hypothesis? Your hypothesis is that if individuals eat the same food, their offspring will show the same pattern of gene mutation? Is that right?

Now you've come up with many cells that arose individually and apparently transfered genes to each other. So even though they arose individually, they were still biologically similar enough to effectively transfer genes. What does that tell you? It tells me that when life arises on this planet there is only one blueprint to follow. Otherwise the individual life would have been so different in biological structure that gene transfer should not have occured. What you are seeing is similarity due to other factors other than ancestry. So both of your models of single cell or multi cells arising makes no sence one way or the other.
That's right. Everything evolved from a single common ancestor, and is all made of the same stuff. Cool, eh?
There has been no evolution of genes and this is what was expected.
So a camel has the same genes as a bacteria?
The findings of such similarity beween species was surprising initially.
No, actually, ToE predicts it. Do you see why?
Then of course that prediction went out the window and it was simailarity that supported Toe.

What you call similarity is not similarity at all.
But you just said it is. Now you're contradicting yourself. Each gene that you say is shared with other creatures is very different in other creatures and the same gene performs different functions in different species.
Actually, no, that's what was so surprising and interesting about Hox genes. They do the same thing in extremely different organisms.
Even in our own bodies the same dna 'knows' to produce an eye, a leg or a nervous system. The fact that all life appears to have similar genes, that aren't similar at all, shows God used a very clever blueprint to create life.
Yes, He did, and He used evolution to do it. Neat, eh?

Hypothesis, got one? If not, then no evidence. No evidence, what are you doing in this thread?
 
Last edited:

David M

Well-Known Member
Evos predicted smooth evolution and this was not found.

Wrong, not even Darwin predicted this. He predicted that things would evolve at different rates and that sometimes this would happen rapidly over geologic timescales He did not subscribe to "phyletic gradualism".

Origin of Species. Chapter 11.

Species belonging to different genera and classes have not changed at the same rate, or in the same degree.
and lastly, although each species must have passed through numerous transitional stages, it is probable that the periods, during which each underwent modification, though many and long as measured by years, have been short in comparison with the periods during which each remained in an unchanged condition. These causes, taken conjointly, will to a large extent explain why--though we do find many links--we do not find interminable varieties, connecting together all extinct and existing forms by the finest graduated steps. It should also be constantly borne in mind that any linking variety between two forms, which might be found, would be ranked, unless the whole chain could be perfectly restored, as a new and distinct species; for it is not pretended that we have any sure criterion by which species and varieties can be discriminated.
They thought life would be very genetically different..it wasn't.

Wrong, common descent predicts that life would not be be very genetically different.

Darwin predicted smooth transitions. Darwin was wrong.

No he didn't, not for all species only that there would be some cases where the fossil record would show smooth gradual transitions and some where it would not. See above.
 
Last edited:

newhope101

Active Member
Well, I have to admit an error for ever expecting to rely on your theoretical assumptions for too long. As I said they change like the wind. It appears you evolutionists have been holding out on me. The best refute to my previous point 1 is…there is no MTEVE. Looks like she's headed for the delutional garbage bin, also.

Now, no doubt there is evidence to refute the research suggesting Mt Eve is dead. However what do evolutionists class as the truth. It it as simplistic as the most recent research must have it right? Or is a matter of choosing from contradictory evidence that which suits you.

The upshot of it all is that there is so much past evidence that resides in the garbage bin of delusional evidence that one would have to question if your researchers can see anything at all without the use of probabilities and biased assumptions. So I have had to reword my evidence in support of creation to reflect the inconsistent and changing nature of your assumptions.
.
Here is some evidence in support of creation:
1. For now, it appears the MRCA is set at 5,000 years. This demonstrates all of mankind alive today are related to a group of people at that time, which is likely Noah and his family.

2. The Y chromosome is meant to stay the same from generation to generation. The Y chromosome is remarkably different in the Chimp and human male chromosome. If we share a common ancestor the Y chromosome should be very similar between descendants. It is not. Rather they are compared to a chicken and human at 310 million years of separation.

3. For now the human version of the FoxP2 gene is also set to 5,000 years which also coincided with the appears of written language an arts.

4. An abundance of life is shown to arise during the Cambrian period. This is the evidence and this is proof of creation. Anything else apart from this evidence are hypothetical assumptions. Evolutionists attempts to assert ancestry to the Precambrian creation have failed. Researchers are unable to provide anything more than assumptions and hypothesis re oxygen levels and why such a plethora of life suddenly begins to appear at the one time. Many Precambrian creatures still exist today, eg sponges, illustrating that sponges were created to be sponges and have remained so until today.

5. Mankind appears fully formed in one domain. This is evidence for creation. Your dating methods are theoretical and biased. SkhulV was initially dated to 40ya then redated to suit the assumption of ancestry. Your theoretical dating methods are tied to evolutionary assumptions and not valid as evidence. Researchers attempts to show ancestry through the fossil record to chimpanzees have failed. The constant debate and reclassification of fossil evidence along with proof that homo cranial features are not unique to the homo line, invalidate any attempt to prove ancestry through morphological similarity. False assumptions re knuckle walking ancestry and inability to classify LUCY demonstrate that researchers are unable to validly identify mid species, which are not mid species at all. Genomic information is reliant on fossil evidence to inform same and hence is not a reliable source of data.Your attempts to tie bipedal walking to brain increases have found no substance to the claim. Your attempts to tie humans to knuckle walkers ancestry had had to be reworked. Your attempts to classify bipedal walking as a move to humanness have failed. Your attempts to consolidate another evolutionary path into a new version of human evolutionary theory will not stand the test of time, as past behaviour is the best predictor of future performance.

6. The search for Last Universal Common Ancestor (LUCA) has failed and no longer ties all life to a single LUCA. This supports creation. Your assumption in relation to horizontal gene transfer remain controversial and provide no substance other than assumptions and hypothesis as to why there is no LUCA. The fact is simply, there is no LUCA and that is evidence in favour of creation.

7. Researchers have now shown that the sharing of genes means little in the understanding of what makes humans special or other creatures unique. After all a banana shares 50% of genes with humans. It is about gene expression and gene families. The fact that a human and a plant share genes is proof of common design, and not ancestry.

Other Research related to my evidence for creation:
Wiki MRCA - Patrilineal and matrilineal MRCA
Main articles: Mitochondrial Eve and Y-chromosomal Adam
It is not possible to trace human ancestry via autosomal chromosomes. Although a chromosome contains genes that are passed down from parents to children via independent assortment from only one of the two parents, genetic recombination (chromosomal crossover) mixes genes from non-sister chromatids from both parents during meiosis, thus changing the nature of the chromosome. In addition, each parent will pass on only one of their autosomal chromosomes to their offspring.
However, the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is nearly immune to sexual mixing. Mitochondrial DNA, therefore, can be used to trace matrilineal inheritance of a population of related individuals. Similarly Y-DNA is present as a single chromosome in the male individual and is passed on to sons and grandsons without recombination

Note the word “nearly” immune to sexual mixing….then….

More evidence for non-maternal inheritance of mitochondrial DNA? 2005
Results: More than 20 studies were found reporting clear cut instances with mtDNAs of different ancestries in single individuals. As examples, cases are reviewed from recent published reports which, at face value, may be taken as evidence for paternal inheritance of mtDNA or recombination.
 
Last edited:

outhouse

Atheistically
still trying to panhandle lies I see

All you have above is misinterpretation of real science.

that is not evidence for creation at all.
 

McBell

Unbound
still trying to panhandle lies I see

All you have above is misinterpretation of real science.

that is not evidence for creation at all.

It is interesting all the work she puts into trying to discredit evolution.

Even if she did prove evolution was false, she still would not have done a damn thing to show that creation is anything more than a belief.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
It is interesting all the work she puts into trying to discredit evolution.

Even if she did prove evolution was false, she still would not have done a damn thing to show that creation is anything more than a belief.


I know its pitiful, she doesnt have more then a high school education in real science but she is going to try and tear down the most brilliant minds :facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm:
 

newhope101

Active Member
Mestemia..there are 2 facets to my post. I have provided evidence that supports creation in line with the thread. And yes, discrediting Toe assists in supporting creation concepts. After all, we do know we are here and life had to come about somehow.

The research is from your own researchers. Anyone that denies the research obviously knows less than me. I can also back every point with research from within your own scientific community. Therefore, refute all you wish, but to deny it demonstrates you are hypocritical and unaware of your own research. In other words, I know more about it than you...which appears obvious at the moment.
 

McBell

Unbound
Mestemia..there are 2 facets to my post. I have provided evidence that supports creation in line with the thread. And yes, discrediting Toe assists in supporting creation concepts. After all, we do know we are here and life had to come about somehow.

The research is from your own researchers. Anyone that denies the research obviously knows less than me. I can also back every point with research from within your own scientific community. Therefore, refute all you wish, but to deny it demonstrates you are hypocritical and unaware of your own research. In other words, I know more about it than you...which appears obvious at the moment.

like I said.
All your work and dedication to discredit evolution does not a damn thing to validate creation.

OASN:
Your ego masturbation is rather comical and your implied insults are most petty and childish.
 

newhope101

Active Member
Wrong, not even Darwin predicted this. He predicted that things would evolve at different rates and that sometimes this would happen rapidly over geologic timescales He did not subscribe to "phyletic gradualism".

Origin of Species. Chapter 11.
What about soft inheritance that Darwin supported?
Wiki: After publication of Charles Darwin's theory of natural selection, the importance of individual efforts in the generation of adaptation was considerably diminished. Later, Mendelian genetics supplanted the notion of inheritance of acquired traits, eventually leading to the development of the modern evolutionary synthesis, and the general abandonment of the Lamarckian theory of evolution in biology. In a wider context, soft inheritance is of use when examining the evolution of cultures and ideas, and is related to the theory of Memetics.

My point does not require this addit. I have deleted it as it is not the sole basis of the point anyway. Let's see if you can refute the main points without the use of assumptions.

Wrong, common descent predicts that life would not be be very genetically different.
Evidence please...and from what century...


No he didn't, not for all species only that there would be some cases where the fossil record would show smooth gradual transitions and some where it would not. See above.
I believe Darwin promoted Natural selection...which is smooth and constant.

So I have had to kill MTEve, as I thought for once you guys may have actually known what you were looking at. Alas, I was wrong. So I have taken Eve out and reworded my evidence to reflect the unreliability of much of your theoretical data.

Can you refute the main points below?

This thread requests evidence of creation. I have supplied what I feel is evidence in support of creation. If you have research that refutes my main points let's see it. Opinions are worthless without evidence. In the end it will be about what research you choose to accept or deny, as suits you.


Here is some evidence in support of creation:
1. For now, it appears the MRCA is set at 5,000 years. This demonstrates all of mankind alive today are related to a group of people at that time, which is likely Noah and his family.
2. The Y chromosome is meant to say the same from generation to generation. The Y chromosome is remarkably different in the Chimp and human male chromosome. If we share a common ancestor the Y chromosome should be very similar between descendants. It is not. Rather they are compared to a chicken and human at 310 million years of separation.
3. For now the human version of the FoxP2 gene is also set to 5,000 years which also coincided with the appears of written language an arts.
4. An abundance of life is shown to arise during the Cambrian period. This is the evidence and this is proof of creation. Anything else apart from this evidence are hypothetical assumptions. Evolutionists attempts to assert ancestry to the Precambrian creation have failed. Researchers are unable to provide anything more than assumptions and hypothesis re oxygen levels and why such a plethora of life suddenly begins to appear at the one time. Many Precambrian creatures still exist today, eg sponges, illustrating that sponges were created to be sponges and have remained so until today.
5. Mankind appears fully formed in one domain. This is evidence for creation. Your dating methods are theoretical and biased. SkhulV was initially dated to 40ya then redated to suit the assumption of ancestry. Your theoretical dating methods are tied to evolutionary assumptions and not valid as evidence. Researchers attempts to show ancestry through the fossil record to chimpanzees have failed. The constant debate and reclassification of fossil evidence along with proof that homo cranial features are not unique to the homo line, invalidate any attempt to prove ancestry through morphological similarity. False assumptions re knuckle walking ancestry and inability to classify LUCY demonstrate that researchers are unable to validly identify mid species, which are not mid species at all. Genomic information is reliant on fossil evidence to inform same and hence is not a reliable source of data. Your attempts to tie bipedal walking to brain increases have found no substance to the claim. Your attempts to tie humans to knuckle walkers have failed and had to be reworked. Your attempts to classify bipedal walking as a move to humanness have failed. Your attempts to consolidate another evolutionary path into a new version of human evolutionary theory will not stand the test of time, as past behaviour is the best predictor of future performance..
6. The search for Last Universal Common Ancestor (LUCA) has failed and no longer ties all life to a single LUCA. This supports creation. Your assumption in relation to horizontal gene transfer remain controversial and provide no substance other than assumptions and hypothesis as to why there is no LUCA. The fact is simply, there is no LUCA and that is evidence in favour of creation.
5. Researchers have now shown that the sharing of genes means little in the understanding of what makes humans special or other creatures unique. After all humans share 50% of their genes with a banana. It is about gene expression and gene families. The fact that a human and a plant share genes is proof of common design, and not ancestry.
 
Last edited:
Top