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Creationists, please provide evidence

newhope101

Active Member
Quote Mestemia "Creation is nothing more than a bald assertion with no empirical evidence to support it.
Thus the reason that creationists spend their time trying in vain to prove ToE false.
Sad really, that creationists do not understand that proving ToE false does not a damn thing for helping support creationism."


No, this is not what I have done. If you look back to my initial reply I have used your scientific research to support a creationist view of the data. The further posts are replies to refutes etc.

I maintain much of your scientific data, particularly recent genome testing, supports the creation of mankind as opposed to the evolution of mankind from anything. My initial addresss used mtEve and YAdam.

I'm glad some think I'm funny. Surely it's a refreshing change from quoting from an inspired writing as proof of the inspired writing.
 

DeitySlayer

President of Chindia
Your initial address failed to notice that mtEve and YAdam were not a 'couple', nor were they the only humans around.
 

newhope101

Active Member
Deityslayer Quote:Your initial address failed to notice that mtEve and YAdam were not a 'couple', nor were they the only humans around.

You failed to notice that I acknowledge the hypothesis that other humans were around. It's the myth that explains the genetic data that I believe is a convenient story to explain their findings
 

evolved yet?

A Young Evolutionist
17 pages of argument and only evidence they come up with are either unprovable, or require an alteration of the facts.
 

Noaidi

slow walker
17 pages of argument and only evidence they come up with are either unprovable, or require an alteration of the facts.

Did you really expect anything else, evolved yet? The lack of a hypothesis and subsequent supporting evidence says it all.
And these people want it taught in science classes....?! It'll be a pretty thin text book, I think.
 

newhope101

Active Member
Resorting to smutt doesn't make you correct.

You cannot deny you believe that only one male and one female maintained a same sex lineage for said amount of years. Facinating that you are prepare to ridicule others. How do you know that every line of mtDNA is not irradicated rather quickly and perhaps all this genetic testing is a waste of tax payers money?

No alteration of the facts required to support creation. The facts appear to support themselves. It's the endless convoluted hypthesis of fairly straight forward data that manitains TOE as no better than creative theory.

One piece of evidence changes the face of what is known. For example Science Daily noted in 2002 in relation to a skull found in Ethopia....and only God knows how many times this has been refuted and supported since. Yet you are gullable enough to go with the flow. Not the sign of a thinking individual...more like a sheep.

This is an extract. This proffessor thinks some of these other scientific minds are gooses. Backs up what I said.
"What we are saying in this paper is that the anthropological splitting common today is giving the wrong impression about the biology of these early human ancestors," he said. "The different names indicate an apparent diversity that is not real. Homo erectus is a biologically successful organism, not a whole series of different human ancestors, all but one of which went extinct."

As you all say, refuting ToE and making it look silly does not support any creation event. But then you're cognitively challenged if any of you truly believe there are any Nobel prize winners here that can truly scientifically support or prove a creation event, God or any of it....so who's the silly one?

Yet the data, not the suppositions of biased researchers out to make a name for themselves, supports the creation. Common decent, without all the mumbo and guestemations, supports creation. So does alot of it.

Homo Erectus, being widespread, able to control fire for which you'd have to be fairly smart, smarter than say someone with an IQ of less than around 80. To understand the concept with an IQ less than this would require someone smarter teaching the skill. Erectus as some suggest had helpless babies (unable to cling to parents) like modern babies indicating large brain size. Oh then there's the research that indicates brain size has little to do with intellect. Some very clever humans have brains only 1000cc.

You see the problem is not that creationists believe in myth. It's that evolutionists believe anything they are told no matter how confusing or ridiculous it sounds.

You haven't sufficiently refuted the ridiculousness of the mtEve of YAdam. Resorting to petty insults doesn't cut it. But this is all that I expected back.

You're worse than creationists, lovies, you continue to quote you're faulty and convoluted hypothesis that change like the wind. Rather than just seeing what the data is telling you plainly. No wonder no sensible creationist wants to debate the topic...but then again it's raining so why not!
 

Danmac

Well-Known Member
You like to attack evolution but I have never heard positive evidence for your beliefs please provide some.

God does provide evidence of Hid existence. He will not offer evidence to the masses, He will only prove Himself to the individual. If you want God to prove His existence to you, then challenge Him to do just that.
 

Noaidi

slow walker
God does provide evidence of Hid existence. He will not offer evidence to the masses, He will only prove Himself to the individual. If you want God to prove His existence to you, then challenge Him to do just that.

Okay... Is that your response to providing a hypothesis and supporting evidence?
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Empress..I think evolutionists believe in miracles also..but they have hypothesis to explain it all.

The evidence for creation has already been established in the scientific community. One only needs to separate fact from hypothesis to observe it. The topic is huge and a post cannot do the topic justice. So I’ll take on a couple of little points. Y chromosome Adam and mitochondrial Eve have already proven the creation of mankind.

Genetic computations involve an incredible amount of guesstemating. You are likely aware of the info pasted below. The articles use different substitution rates and have dated Eve to 6,500 years. The same is possible with Y chromosome Adam. Much the same is possible with any dating methods. I can show many instances of other dating methods having been shown to be faulty. The creation story is easier to swallow than the myth scientists have invented to explain their Adam and Eve.

So basically a reply speaking to human migrations or quoting dated objects or species is void. As is speaking to fossils where scientists can't tell the difference between one example of a non human primate or another. eg Homo florensisensis, but I can quote many others.

About ERRORS:
Checking one method's results against another has traditionally been scientists' way of keeping their methods honest. In 1990, the New York Times published an article revealing that Columbia University researchers using the uranium-thorium dating method to confirm radiocarbon dating had found huge discrepancies between the radiocarbon dates and the uranium-thorium dates, calling into question the validity of radiocarbon dating. More recently, a group of Christian scientists tested substances thought to be millions of years old, like coal and diamonds, only to find traces of radiocarbon, which would make them much younger according to the radiocarbon method.

Mankind was created in Gods image as opposed to the rest of the creation. Genes are the blueprint for life and this is why all life shares so many genes. God controls the expression. For example, when God created the first flowers he gave them plenty of room for diversity, as part of an ecological system, for beauty, to please mankind. Two groups, superrosids & superasterids that used their genetic diversity to become over 200,000 so called ‘species’, which are still flowers, of course.

Genetics show common ancestory in all living organisms that trace back to an individual. That's the fact. The hypothesis is that all living organisms go back to an individual organism that split off a tree of common decent. A truly miraculous supposition.

Besides, your science alleges multiple homo species co existing at the one time for millions of years. Strangely, the primitive races we have found in written history are all perfectly human, they just don’t have washing machines. A shame bigfoot was a fraud.

Now to look at the other end of the creation. Sponges and other cnidarians have nerve cells, microRNA’s that fine tune gene expression have been around for a billion years. Trichoplax, one of natures most primitive multicellular organisms shares over 80% of its genes with humans. Intelligent design is obvious in all life. Life was created with much more than was necessary to live, reproduce and adapt. Rather genetic studies are illustrating Gods signature throughout the creation.

So in conclusion science has already proven the creation. Perhaps scientists are just too intoxicated with ToE to see it.

Below a little info on how easy it is to manipulate dating methods results.
A high observed substitution rate in the human mitochondrial DNA control region (8):
The rate and pattern of sequence substitutions in the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) control region (CR) is of central importance to studies of human evolution and to forensic identity testing. Here, we report direct measurement of the intergenerational substitution rate in the human CR. We compared DNA sequences of two CR hypervariable segments from close maternal relatives, from 134 independent mtDNA lineages spanning 327 generational events. Ten substitutions were observed, resulting in an empirical rate of 1/33 generations, or 2.5/site/Myr. This is roughly twenty-fold higher than estimates derived from phylogenetic analyses. This disparity cannot be accounted for simply by substitutions at mutational hot spots, suggesting additional factors that produce the discrepancy between very near-term and long-term apparent rates of sequence divergence. The data also indicate that extremely rapid segregation of CR sequence variants between generations is common in humans, with a very small mtDNA bottleneck. These results have implications for forensic applications and studies of human evolution...

....The observed substitution rate reported here is very high compared to rates inferred from evolutionary studies. A wide range of CR substitution rates have been derived from phylogenetic studies, spanning roughly 0.025-0.26/site/Myr, including confidence intervals. A study yielding one of the faster estimates gave the substitution rate of the CR hypervariable regions as 0.118 +- 0.031/site/Myr. Assuming a generation time of 20 years, this corresponds to ~1/600 generations and an age for the mtDNA MRCA of 133,000 y.a. Thus, our observation of the substitution rate, 2.5/site/Myr, is roughly 20-fold higher than would be predicted from phylogenetic analyses. Using our empirical rate to calibrate the mtDNA molecular clock would result in an age of the mtDNA MRCA of only ~6,500 y.a., clearly incompatible with the known age of modern humans.'
'The rate and pattern of sequence substitutions in the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) control region (CR) is of central importance to studies of human evolution and to forensic identity testing. Here, we report direct measurement of the intergenerational substitution rate in the human CR. We compared DNA sequences of two CR hypervariable segments from close maternal relatives, from 134 independent mtDNA lineages spanning 327 generational events. Ten substitutions were observed, resulting in an empirical rate of 1/33 generations, or 2.5/site/Myr. This is roughly twenty-fold higher than estimates derived from phylogenetic analyses. This disparity cannot be accounted for simply by substitutions at mutational hot spots, suggesting additional factors that produce the discrepancy between very near-term and long-term apparent rates of sequence divergence. The data also indicate that extremely rapid segregation of CR sequence variants between generations is common in humans, with a very small mtDNA bottleneck. These results have implications for forensic applications and studies of human evolution...

Before you can begin to look for evidence, you need to state your hypothesis. [how many times have I said this in this thread?] Could you please lay out your hypothesis for how we get all the different kinds of species that we have?
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
About ERRORS:
Checking one method's results against another has traditionally been scientists' way of keeping their methods honest. In 1990, the New York Times published an article revealing that Columbia University researchers using the uranium-thorium dating method to confirm radiocarbon dating had found huge discrepancies between the radiocarbon dates and the uranium-thorium dates, calling into question the validity of radiocarbon dating.
There is a word for this, Newhope. The word is plagiarism. It is against forum rules and the law. Don't do it.

How would discrediting radiometric dating support your hypothesis? Don't you first need to tell us what on earth your hypothesis is?
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Note 'highly likely' is not science.

Actually, "highly likely" is exactly science. It is exactly how all science works. Science is always empirical and can only establish probability, never absolute proof. The fact that this study uses the language "highly likely" is exactly how you know it is science, not either formal logic or baloney.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Quote Mestemia "Creation is nothing more than a bald assertion with no empirical evidence to support it.
Thus the reason that creationists spend their time trying in vain to prove ToE false.
Sad really, that creationists do not understand that proving ToE false does not a damn thing for helping support creationism."


No, this is not what I have done. If you look back to my initial reply I have used your scientific research to support a creationist view of the data. The further posts are replies to refutes etc.

I maintain much of your scientific data, particularly recent genome testing, supports the creation of mankind as opposed to the evolution of mankind from anything. My initial addresss used mtEve and YAdam.

I'm glad some think I'm funny. Surely it's a refreshing change from quoting from an inspired writing as proof of the inspired writing.

What creationist view? YOu haven't even told us. Since not two creationists believe the same odd thing [as we see in this thread with the doctor, who view does not agree with anyone else's] and, having abandoned the scientific method, they have no way to resolve their differences, we need to hear what your creationist hypothesis is. Could you share it with us please?
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
God does provide evidence of Hid existence. He will not offer evidence to the masses, He will only prove Himself to the individual. If you want God to prove His existence to you, then challenge Him to do just that.

HOW. HOW. HOW. NOT WHO, HOW. [Henceforward, H.H.H. N.W., H.]
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
God does provide evidence of Hid existence. He will not offer evidence to the masses, He will only prove Himself to the individual. If you want God to prove His existence to you, then challenge Him to do just that.

I recall a story from somewhere, it may be the Bible, where a man set out a rag before bed and asked God to cause the rag to be wet before he woke.

When he woke up unimpressed by the wet rag, he asked again whether God could make the rest of the room BESIDES the rag wet when he woke up.

If God were subject to these kinds of tests then the whole world would be full of believers because I doubt there are very many atheists who haven't at least TRIED it earnestly.
 

newhope101

Active Member
Go Danmac...good on you. Have your say. Your opinion is as important as anyones.

Phlagerism...Didn't i quote the work in the paragraph prior. Don't feel threatened!

Autodidact my hypothesis is that God created mankind. That this hyp is supported by much of the current data. Wasn’t that obvious and stated. Am I speaking another language. Discrediting radiometric dating invalidates all the replies that bore me ..like what about bla bla being found on some date.

I say that the data leans more in support of a creative event by an intelligent designer than it does support the theory of evolution. The operative word is supports rather than proves.

If a God created life what do you suppose the data and evidence would look like? What would creation predict as opposed to TOE?

Scientists appear surprised to say the least at the genomic similarities among species. This is not what ToE would expect. Rather researchers expected to see some sort of more significant graduations in various life forms. This is not what is evident by the data. Rather, why would a God bother to make everything so individual. He has nothing to prove. He used certain genes as the basics, tuned then on or off, expressed them, whatever. I would expect that creation theory would predict that all life should be fairly similar genetically if the one mind created it all by kicking off a few originals with the capacity to diversify. Yep. Much easier to understand than all the gobble.

Doesn’t Toe predict the graduation in skulls from chimp to human. Creation would predict a sudden appearance of modern mankind. Is that not what is found. All those skulls that are not obviously human would be non humans primates. We already know the mistake researchers made in representing Neanderthal until recently. Really researchers do not know, it’s guesswork guised as science until discovered. Any discovery complicating the human line debate and leading to more hypothesis. The same for other life. It traces back to an individual ancestor. An ancestor that was created by God enabled with huge genetic diversity to flourish and fill the niches in the ecological creation. You call this diversification speciation resulting in a species change. Hence the 'kinds' debate. Speciation relative to adaptation as such is not against creative theory. If one drops the species change and just searched for the initial ancestor and understand that this organism or creature was Gods creation that flourished, it would be much easier. Species is a concept. The initial sponge ancestor is the creation all other sponges are sponges that have adapted, same for birds and fish. All the debate and wind shifting because researchers are not keeping it simple and trying to align it with creation instead of ToE as it stands.

Much easier to understand that all, of the Homo species, other than sapiens, are simply non human primates. There’s no reason to believe that they, non human primates, did not undergo significant change due to environmental factors and food availability. We should be amazed at the diversity of primates that has existed. Rather than turn them into humans of varying degrees. As for tools, well chimps use tools. Walk upright no problem for creation..they do now…maybe it was an environmental thing. Fires, that evidence would go back to evidence of bushfires etc. By showing these fossils as an array of non human primates there is no need for convoluted explanations and debates about it in relation to how they became human. No confusion over a florensiensis or erectus etc or which ape we came from.

One researcher can ‘prove’ we came from orang-utans. Seriously.

The trouble is researchers are trying to show something that is not there. Rather than support creation. Hence all the confusion. All easily fits and simply into a creative model and intelligent design. Terrific.

Same as MtEve and YAdam, simple to fit in with creation. No need to speculate any further back than 6,000 years and show that there is evidence of human common ancestry with everything.

As for dating. I have already shown how data can be manipulated. If scientists wanted to they could make the dating fit in with creation then work from there, as they often do.

The sponge research, the trichoplax research, the everything research, much easier supports the creation of various kinds.

You evolutionists like to believe all this complicated nonsense…like sheep to the slaughter you'll believe anything...and creationists really should sympathize.
 
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jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
To all Creationists who wish to do science or think scientifically;

How to formulate your hypothesis: How to Formulate a Hypothesis Using the Scientific Method | eHow.com

The difference between a Hypothesis, a Scientific Theory and a Scientific Law (to avoid confusion): Scientific Hypothesis, Theory, Law Definitions

In short; Start by asking a question, then formulate your hypothesis by the use of conditional statements in the manner of "if X is true then we should see Y happening". This "if - then" statement is central to the hypothesis. Do your best to eliminate other factors that might influence your hypothesis, and be ACCURATE about what your hypothesis is defined to test as the testability of your hypothesis is another central element. You must also separate your independent variable (what you are testing) and the dependent variable (what the expected result should be).

Examples used to teach children how to formulate a hypothesis:
"Raising the temperature of a cup of water (temperature is the independent variable) will increase the amount of sugar that dissolves (the amount of sugar is the dependent variable)."
"If a plant receives fertilizer (using fertilizer is the independent variable), then it will grow to be bigger than a plant that does not receive fertilizer (plant size is the dependent variable)."


That should get you started. ;)
 
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DeitySlayer

President of Chindia
Newhope, you repeatedly use 'kind' as a delimitation within which speciation from a single ancestor can occur. Could you please define the term at a level above a two-year old's 'fishie, doggie, horsie'. For example, is there one 'fish' kind, or two: cartiliginious and bony: or thousands, or...you get the gist.

In short: DEFINE KIND.
 

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
I say that the data leans more in support of a creative event by an intelligent designer than it does support the theory of evolution. The operative word is supports rather than proves.

Utter nonsense.

If a God created life what do you suppose the data and evidence would look like? What would creation predict as opposed to TOE?

That is exactly what we have been asking you guys for ages now. And since it is your notion that ToE is wrong and "God did it" is right, you get to formulate that little nugget. That doesn't mean your hypothesis will be instantly approved (even as a workable hypothesis), but it will at least give us something to work with.

Scientists appear surprised to say the least at the genomic similarities among species. This is not what ToE would expect. Rather researchers expected to see some sort of more significant graduations in various life forms. This is not what is evident by the data.

Nonsense. The mapping of DNA has shown us a perfect "family" tree that is fully consistent with what we would expect if Evolution is true. In fact, DNA has become the strongest evidence in favour of Evolution that we have.

Rather, why would a God bother to make everything so individual. He has nothing to prove. He used certain genes as the basics, tuned then on or off, expressed them, whatever. I would expect that creation theory would predict that all life should be fairly similar genetically if the one mind created it all by kicking off a few originals with the capacity to diversify. Yep. Much easier to understand than all the gobble.

Just because you can't understand "all the gobble" doesn't mean that your delusion is correct. That's just an argument from ignorance and therefore invalid. Next.

Doesn’t Toe predict the graduation in skulls from chimp to human.

Newsflash: We did not evolve from chimps. Even my fifth grade pupils know that.

Creation would predict a sudden appearance of modern mankind. Is that not what is found.

No, it is not.

All those skulls that are not obviously human would be non humans primates.

What is your criteria for "not obviously human"?

We already know the mistake researchers made in representing Neanderthal until recently. Really researchers do not know, it’s guesswork guised as science until discovered.

Mate, you really don't understand how science works, do you? Science does not progress in a straight line wherein all tests come back positive and all experiments are successful. To use an analogy, rather than the bullet from a sniper-rifle science is more like a shot-gun blast. We fire it off in the direction we think will work and then we see if any of our pellets hit anything. That is how we do research. Now, most of the pellets will miss and even some that we think hit the target will later be shown to have missed or even hit another target altogether. That is what doing science means.
But once we have shot enough pellets and confirmed the location we can then start to hit that target with unprecedented accuracy. That is the application of science and it makes it the most successful and powerful idea we humans have come up with.

Any discovery complicating the human line debate and leading to more hypothesis.

Yes, the answers we find often lead to more questions. That is not a bad thing though.

The same for other life. It traces back to an individual ancestor.

Correct.

An ancestor that was created by God enabled with huge genetic diversity to flourish and fill the niches in the ecological creation.

Incorrect.

You call this diversification speciation resulting in a species change. Hence the 'kinds' debate.

"Kinds" is a useless term in biology and taxonomy. I'm not saying you disagree, but I thought it prudent to make that clear.

Speciation relative to adaptation as such is not against creative theory. If one drops the species change and just searched for the initial ancestor and understand that this organism or creature was Gods creation that flourished, it would be much easier.

There is no evidence to indicate that it was God's creation, nor that there even is such a thing as a god.

Species is a concept.

With very clear definitions.

Much easier to understand that all, of the Homo species, other than sapiens, are simply non human primates.

Simpler? Sure. Incorrect and utterly inaccurate? Definitely.

We should be amazed at the diversity of primates that has existed. Rather than turn them into humans of varying degrees.

We don't. We call them apes, monkeys and primates. All of which are terms that fit us as well.

One researcher can ‘prove’ we came from orang-utans. Seriously.

We did not "come" from any of the modern species of apes.

The trouble is researchers are trying to show something that is not there. Rather than support creation. Hence all the confusion. All easily fits and simply into a creative model and intelligent design. Terrific.

Show, don't tell. If this is so obvious to you, then show us the evidence and your conclusions.

Same as MtEve and YAdam, simple to fit in with creation. No need to speculate any further back than 6,000 years and show that there is evidence of human common ancestry with everything.

Of course there is a need to go back further. Life goes back further and so must we. Also, MtEve and YAdam lived thousands of years apart, and considering that in the case of Mitochondrial Eve she is considered to have lived some 200.000 years ago we obviously have to go back more than 6000 years.

As for dating. I have already shown how data can be manipulated. If scientists wanted to they could make the dating fit in with creation then work from there, as they often do.

Do you have any sources that indicate that scientists often manipulate isotope dating or did you just make that up?

You evolutionists like to believe all this complicated nonsense…like sheep to the slaughter you'll believe anything...and creationists really should sympathize.

Seeing as modern medicine is dependent upon our understanding of Evolution I think you should be grateful rather than sympathetic.
 
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