Creator and creation the same in Christianity?

[Onkara]

Hi
I am curious, is there any denominations or scriptural interpretations which confirm that Creator and creation are the same, or in some way linked eternally?

My question is based on the assumption that Christianity says man and God are completely separate entities. God may influence man, but man lives, thinks and dies independently of God.

 

[Pegg]

Hi
I am curious, is there any denominations or scriptural interpretations which confirm that Creator and creation are the same, or in some way linked eternally?

My question is based on the assumption that Christianity says man and God are completely separate entities. God may influence man, but man lives, thinks and dies independently of God.

the closest thing we (jw's) teach is that because we are made in Gods image, we are able to reflect Gods qualities and these qualities account for the universal laws among humans.
The qualities im speaking of are 'Love, Justice, Wisdom & Power' And because we are created in Gods image, we will always be connected to him and he to us in a special way....a way the animals will never be.

 

[sandandfoam]

Hi Onkarah,

Newell presents the Celtic version of Christianity (e.g. Columba, Patrick, Iona etc.) as viewing nature as Theophany.
I don't think that God is nature and no more. But I do think that nature is a physical manifestation of God.

 

[Midnight Pete]

Hi
I am curious, is there any denominations or scriptural interpretations which confirm that Creator and creation are the same, or in some way linked eternally?

My question is based on the assumption that Christianity says man and God are completely separate entities. God may influence man, but man lives, thinks and dies independently of God.

Creator and creation are not the same, else it would be some kind of pantheism.

 

[Onkara]

Thanks Pegg and Stephen


How much flexibility can Christians allow themselves personally on the interpretation and answer of this question, do you think?

My impression is that at some point we must say that creator and creation are somehow separate and distinct in order to build a relationship or to fit in and worship within a congregation, but perhaps I am wrong?

 

[Madhuri]

Hi Onkarah,

But I do think that nature is a physical manifestation of God.

I used to think you were a Hindu because of your previous avatar and comments like this

 

[Wessexman]

Stephenw is essentially correct. On one level God and the universe are discontinuous because the universe is relative and God, or the divine essence at least, is absolute. But from another perspective the universe is part of God because there is nothing except God and for it to exist it must be part of God. In essentials there is no difference between the Christian, or the traditional, mystical Christian perspective and Advaita Vedanta or Platonism. The universe is Maya and therefore is not Atma on one level, but on another it is Atma because there is only Atma.

This is not a rare position in Christianity, indeed it was more or less held, if sometimes only implicitly, by most Christian fathers and thinkers in th first millenium, particularly in the East. It was only with the rise of a rationalising Scholasticism and Protestantism that it got buried in the West, maintained only explicitly by a few like Meister Eckhart or Jakob Boehme. Hence when Christ appeared to St.Catherine of Sienna he could echo the Vedanta perspective by telling her he was he who was and she was she who was not.

 

[Onkara]

Creator and creation are not the same, else it would be some kind of pantheism.

Hello Midnight Pete
Pantheism is pretty much my view of life. As you mention it, my question would then be, why cannot a Christian take a pantheist out look to their relationship with God, Scriptures etc.

I didn't start with this presumption. I am not wishing to remodel Christianity into pantheism, but see how we can relate Creator and creation. As Pegg points out there are some interesting points in our relationship with God and His image.

 

[sandandfoam]

Thanks Pegg and Stephen


How much flexibility can Christians allow themselves personally on the interpretation and answer of this question, do you think?

My impression is that at some point we must say that creator and creation are somehow separate and distinct in order to build a relationship or to fit in and worship within a congregation, but perhaps I am wrong?

I will allow myself as much flexibility as I need. My Christianity is not based on rigid beliefs - I feel the world is in flux and that my beliefs need to be capable of accommodating this.
Christianity to me is about trying to emulate Christ, it is a path, a way of living (or at least trying to live).
Beliefs are of a seperate order - they can be important - but they're not a deal breaker for me

 

[Onkara]

Stephenw is essentially correct. On one level God and the universe are discontinuous because the universe is relative and God, or the divine essence at least, is absolute. But from another perspective the universe is part of God because there is nothing except God and for it to exist it must be part of God. In essentials there is no difference between the Christian, or the traditional, mystical Christian perspective and Advaita Vedanta or Platonism. The universe is Maya and therefore is not Atma on one level, but on another it is Atma because there is only Atma.

This is not a rare position in Christianity, indeed it was more or less held, if sometimes only implicitly, by most Christians. Hence when Christ appeared to St.Catherine of Sienna he could echo the Vedanta perspective by telling her he was he who was and she was she who was not.

Thanks Wessexman
Your posts communicate depth in understanding.
The example of St.Catherine of Sienna you give, is one which I would take as fitting into the explanation that there is only Atma (in Advaita Vedanta). But how long would my stance (and welcome) last within a Catholic or another Christian denomination, I wonder?

 

[sandandfoam]

Thanks Wessexman
Your posts communicate depth in understanding.
The example of St.Catherine of Sienna you give, is one which I would take as fitting into the explanation that there is only Atma (in Advaita Vedanta). But how long would my stance (and welcome) last within a Catholic or another Christian denomination, I wonder?

I can't answer for Wessexman but you'd fit right into the Anglican church as I know it.

 

[Pegg]

Thanks Pegg and Stephen


How much flexibility can Christians allow themselves personally on the interpretation and answer of this question, do you think?

My impression is that at some point we must say that creator and creation are somehow separate and distinct in order to build a relationship or to fit in and worship within a congregation, but perhaps I am wrong?

my personal view is that Gods energy continues to run through all his creations and in that way, all matter is linked to God and is reliant on God for its survival. This would explain why the sun continues to burn and the earth continues to turn and the universe continues to expand and gravity continues to hold everything together.

If matter is the result of God's energy, then without a continual supply of energy from God, the universe and all in it might eventually cease to exist. I believe this is why humans die...I think Adam was dependent upon God for his life and when he rebelled against God he 'unplugged' himself from that dependency and began to die

Jesus said something very interesting about God. Over 4,000 years after the completion of earthly creation when God was still 'resting' from his 'creative works', he stated: “My Father has kept working until now, and I keep working.” Joh 5:17. I wonder if this verse is an indication that God keeps working at powering the universe and keeping it in order?

 

[Midnight Pete]

Hello Midnight Pete
Pantheism is pretty much my view of life. As you mention it, my question would then be, why cannot a Christian take a pantheist out look to their relationship with God, Scriptures etc.

I didn't start with this presumption. I am not wishing to remodel Christianity into pantheism, but see how we can relate Creator and creation. As Pegg points out there are some interesting points in our relationship with God and His image.

In Christianity, the Creator and the creation are seperate.

 

[Wessexman]

Thanks Wessexman
Your posts communicate depth in understanding.

If that is true, you can thank Frithjof Schuon(and God of course!), amongst others. I happen to know though many of the thinkers that have influenced me have drawn much from Indian wisdom, particularly Adi Shankara

The example of St.Catherine of Sienna you give, is one which I would ke as fitting into the explanation that there is only Atma (in Advaita Vedanta). But how long would my stance (and welcome) last within a Catholic or another Christian denomination, I wonder?

Who knows about the RCC post-Vatican II but before that if you implicitly accepted this position in the traditional church from the rise of Scholasticism in the 11th century to the 60s you wouldn't get in too much trouble. Explicit statement of non-dualism though would less excepted.

The Orthodox churches have always been those most open to this perspective, just as they have always been the purest and most balanced form of Christianity.

When it comes to Anglican Christianity you can get away with almost anything unfortunately these days, no matter how anti-traditional, anti-contemplative and anti-spiritual.

 

[Onkara]

When it comes to Anglican Christianity you can get away with almost anything unfortunately these days, no matter how anti-traditional, anti-contemplative and anti-spiritual.

Why is this so? Does this mean people can adapt Christianity to suit their point of view and still be accepted?

 

[Midnight Pete]

Why is this so? Does this mean people can adapt Christianity to suit their point of view and still be accepted?

Yes, but there are limits.