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F1fan

Veteran Member
Galileo was almost a unique example, I think. His treatment seems to have been something of an oddity. He didn't propose a new theory, he was just a supporter of Copernicus (who was a cleric, by the way), whose theory had been commended by the previous pope! I think you will struggle to find other examples of religion holding science back.
As I understand it Copernicus did his work in private and did not release the results due to how it would conflict with the Church. That religion WANTED to stifle progress doesn't mean they succeeded. Look at evangelical Christians who push creationism. Now they haven't succeeded in stopping the advance of biology but they certainly are causing problems and denying knowledge to many people whose futures are affected. Look at pro-life republicans who passed laws that ban the use of stem cells for research, you don't think that stifles work?

Even green energy investment is hindered by republicans who, as I assert, are just the political arm of evangelicals. So I disagree, there are many, many examples of religious minded people interfering with science and progress.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
It's not excusable. Tyson, as an academic, ought to do his research properly before making a claim he uses in support of an argument, when it is something outside his expertise. It is slipshod not to do so and in fact weakens his case.
Errors are excusable because we all make them. It is excusable when the person admits an error. Tyson admitted his errors.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You can find a historian who says just about anything.

On what grounds do you think the writings of al-Ghazali were a main driver to the end of the Islamic Golden age (often called the Abassid Golden Age) as opposed to, for example, the Abassid Empire stopping existing and the much less wealthy and far more fragmented successor states being conquered by the Mongols?
.
It is not my area of expertise at all. I was merely pointing out that quite a few, if not most, historians think that al Ghazali had a major negative impact on the Golden Age of Islam. Calling Tyson ignorant for repeating that claim would not make him ignorant. At worst he is listening to scholars that you appear to be ignoring.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Yes indeed, the conflict between science and religion is something manufactured by recent politics and by one particular, not very representative branch of Protestant Christianity, which is prevalent in the USA. And by people like Dr Grasse Tyson and Dawkins, actually.

It is wrong to generalise from this to the relationship between religion and science in other places and in other eras. Bishop Ussher's chronology was never generally accepted dogma. It was one idea among many.
You are RC, so you might want to defend the Church more than Protestants. I'll give credit to the Church for adjusting over the many centuries to align with what science reveals. Protestants have adopted the worse ideas and doubled down, and that is the religious problem the 21st century faces today in regards to science and progress.

Tyson has made some unforced errors. In the big picture it is not fraud or necessarily damaging to his arguments.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Yes indeed, the conflict between science and religion is something manufactured by recent politics and by one particular, not very representative branch of Protestant Christianity, which is prevalent in the USA. And by people like Dr Grasse Tyson and Dawkins, actually.

It is wrong to generalise from this to the relationship between religion and science in other places and in other eras. Bishop Ussher's chronology was never generally accepted dogma. It was one idea among many.
I am not so sure about that. As @F1fan pointed out it is well known why Copernicus did not publish until near the end of his life. We know what the Catholic church did to Galileo. That has an obvious negative impact.

Creationists like to claim that they are "proscience" too, but they only support the science that they think supports them. You only have to check out the oath that one has to swear to to publish in creationist journals to see that they lost all rights to call what they do "science".

Supporting only Church approved science is an attempt at scientific oppression.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Speaking of which, what do you think of Trump and the January 6th attack?
For the record I despise Trump. I believe Biden was elected fair and square. Those who tried to overturn the election should be severely punished.

But how is my opinion relevant to the points I've made. Are you trying to introduce a red herring or a straw man into the discussion?
Just trying to ascertain your temperament and agenda.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
You are RC, so you might want to defend the Church more than Protestants. I'll give credit to the Church for adjusting over the many centuries to align with what science reveals. Protestants have adopted the worse ideas and doubled down, and that is the religious problem the 21st century faces today in regards to science and progress.

Tyson has made some unforced errors. In the big picture it is not fraud or necessarily damaging to his arguments.
Well, all I can say is that Tyson does not rate high in my estimation. From the admittedly little experience I have of him, he seems a bit glib and dogmatic. I did not know about the examples mentioned in this thread but, they seem to fit my existing impression of the man.

I do think it is important to point out that most mainstream Protestants (Anglicans, Episcopalians, Methodists, etc) have basically the same position as the RCC regarding science. It is no part of thoughtful modern Christianity to try to argue against science.

By the way, I once came across a series of lectures given in Rome by Cardinal Wiseman in the 1840s, showing how the then new discoveries in geology by Buckland, Hutton and Lyell, regarding the age of the Earth etc. could be reconciled with the bible. Having made one blunder with Galileo, the Catholic Church was evidently keen not to repeat the error. Note that this was 20 years before Origin of Species was published. (Buckland was a theologian who ended up as Dean of Westminster Abbey.)

If you are interested in the history of the relationship between science and religion, there is one character who seems to me worthy of study. This is an American called Andrew Dickson White, who in 1896 wrote a book called "A History of The Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom". It is largely this book that has given rise to the popular idea, especially in the US, that science and religion are at loggerheads. The book was rather misguided and its influence has been baleful: A.D. White’s “Warfare between Science and Theology” - Articles
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
At the 2006 Beyond Belief, the 2008 TAM6 and other large gatherings Neil deGrasse Tyson would routinely share three false histories:
Bush and Star Names
Ghazali: Math is the work of the Devil
Newton just stopped because he had God on the Brain

At Beyond Belief were celebrity skeptics like Ann Druyan, Lawrence Krauss, Sam Harris, Michael Shermer, Richard Dawkins, Carolyn Porco and others. At TAM6 were P Z Myers, Stephen Novella, James Randi, Michael Shermer, Penn and Teller, Phil Plaitt and others.

Tyson repeatedly flopped three steaming piles in front of a Who's Who list of celebrity skeptics. They were consumed without question.

So far as I know, not one of them has objected to Tyson's fictions. Are they okay with using falsehoods to push their narrative? Or are they credulous?

Most of these "skeptics" seem to endorse Tyson. They form a mutual admiration society. They write glowing reviews for one another's book jackets. Invite each other to their podcasts. Ann Druyan, Carl Sagan's widow, had Neil narrate the later Cosmos TV series. Dawkins will present Tyson with an award at the Center for Skeptical Inquiry conference in Las Vegas this October.

Does this clique have no regard for truth?
You seem upset about something, but I'm not sure what it is.
Are you annoyed at Tyson for making errors in presentations, or at the audience of those presentations not fact-checking his every word in real time?
Are current affairs and history Tyson's specialist fields?
Do you believe that sceptics cannot make mistakes, or be misinformed, or be dishonest?
Astrophysics isn't my field so I am not really familiar with his work. Do his mistakes in other areas have a bearing on it? Are you suggesting that his scientific papers may be similarly flawed and the peer-reviewing somehow substandard?
Have you checked the checking of his claims? Have you ensured that all the articles you are citing are 100% accurate and in good faith?
And has anyone then checked your checking of that checking?
Thanks.
 
It is not my area of expertise at all.

What would you say is more likely to have a major impact on scietific output?

The fragmentation of empire, frequent warfare and regime change, changing global balance of power, numerous factors causing economic decline and eventual conquest by the Mongols.

The work of a single scholar, read by a tiny proportion of the population, who has no formal authority in Islam or universal following, making some abstract philosophical points about the relationship between religious and secular knowledge that are perfectly compatible with most forms of scientific investigation that somehow influenced the entire Muslim world to stop scientific investigation (even though the Golden Age continued for 150 years after his death)?


Even the idea of an "Islamic" Golden Age is a bit odd. We tend to think of Golden Ages as being the product of a specific society, not that, after the society has ceased to exist, the Golden Age should continue in perpetuity in completely different societies simply because they share the same religion.

I was merely pointing out that quite a few, if not most, historians think that al Ghazali had a major negative impact on the Golden Age of Islam

Most? A handful of scholars whose focus is not Islamic history or philosophy.

If you would like an example of how AGs work wasn't this rabid denunciation of scientific enquiry:

Al-Ghazâlî, Causality, and Knowledge

Peter Adamson
University of Notre Dame


ABSTRACT: Few passages in Arabic philosophy have attracted as much attention as al-Ghazâlî's discussion of causality in the seventeenth discussion of Tahâfut al-Falsafa, along with the response of Ibn Rushd (Averroës) in his Tahâfut al-Tahâfut. A question often asked is to what extent al-Ghazâlî can be called an occasionalist; that is, whether he follows other Kalâm thinkers in restricting causal agency to God alone. What has not been thoroughly addressed in previous studies is a question which al-Ghazâlî and Ibn Rushd both see as decisive in the seventeenth discussion: what theory of causality is sufficient to explain human knowledge? In this paper I show that al-Ghazâlî's and Ibn Rushd's theories of causality are closely related to their epistemologies. The difference between the two thinkers can be briefly summerized as follows. For Ibn Rushd, the paradigm of human knowledge is demonstrative science; for al-Ghazâlî, in contrast, the paradigm of human knowledge is (or at least includes) revelation. Yet both remain committed to the possibility of Aristotelian science and its underlying principles. Thus, I suggest that al-Ghazâlî's stance in the seventeenth discussion sheds light on his critique of philosophy in the Tahâfut: namely, philosophy is not inherently incoherent, but simply limited in scope. I also briefly compare this position to that of Thomas Aquinas, in order to place the view in a more familiar context.

20th WCP: Al-Ghazâlî, Causality, and Knowledge

Calling Tyson ignorant for repeating that claim would not make him ignorant. At worst he is listening to scholars that you appear to be ignoring.

It is indicative of someone not being sceptical but believing what conforms with his prejudices. It wasn't an off the cuff remark but one he made repeatedly in his role as a public intellectual.

He starts with a completely made up story about maths being the work of the devil, setting AG up as an anti-science zealot. False

Then continues to claim that after AG there was no scientific progress in the Islamic world - False. the Golden Age continued for another century and a half after his death and Islamic societies continued to make scientific progress for centuries after that.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
I think that 'skeptic clique' are not true fair-minded skeptics but driven by favoritism towards an atheist-materialist worldview. Emotional preference will usually trump fair reasoning.
So you think that atheist scientists are more likely to be swayed by emotion and have a disregard for rational thought and critical analysis than religionists?
Interesting.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
But maybe Ann Druyan, Krauss, Novella, Dawkins or whoever did do some research. In which case they continued endorsing Tyson knowing that he was a source of falsehoods. And keeping mum about it as well.
Can you cite some references for those people checking Tyson's stories, or claiming that Tyson's version of those stories are accurate?
Thanks

Overall my impression he was arguing that religion tends to be destructive and inhibits innovation.
That is an argument that could be argued.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Well I suppose you could argue that religion only influences and affects those who aren't all that smart as it is, so those who are more skeptical of religion are the one's who tend to be innovators.
To be fair, most religionists are indoctrinated during childhood, so they can become pretty smart by compartmentalising their beliefs. It is sometimes only concerning religion that they seem incapable of rational thought.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Dawkins in particular seems to have wasted a lot of effort attacking an Aunt Sally rather than religion as it is practised by most people.
I'm not sure it would even be possible to make a considered argument against that, even if one spent a lifetime doing it.
Personally, I prefer to criticise the religious ideology itself as laid down in "holy scripture", rather than attempting to address the way billions of individuals from different backgrounds approach their personal interpretation of said scripture (or as is often the case, an acquired idea that is not necessarily based on scripture at all).
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
I think they wouldn't be experts within their fields if they had no regard for truth, however I dont think it is possible for a person to be expert at everything, so you may find them to not be spot on when talking areas outside their expertise.

In my opinion.
No. Tyson repeated some inaccurate stories in a presentation about religion, so they are all charlatans and their entire canon of scientific research should be pulped. Better still, burned!
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
People keep posting the video of Tyson claiming al-Ghazali said maths is the work of the devil here on RF.
Can you prove that al-Ghzali never said that?
(BTW, I have never seen that video nor was I aware Tyson made that claim. But if he said it, it must be true, even if it isn't, because we sceptics don't need to verify anything said by such a renowned and important sceptic.)
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So far as I know, not one of them has objected to Tyson's fictions. Are they okay with using falsehoods to push their narrative? Or are they credulous?

Do you think these prominent atheists should object to falsehoods they hear about religion? Why? I don't mean is it given lip service, but is honesty an actual value in Christianity? It wasn't for the three Supreme Court justices confirmed under Trump. When has a good lie ever been off the table with Christianity? Martin Luther explains it well here:
  • "What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church … a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them."
Is anybody surprised that all three Christians confirmed to the Court under Trump lied under oath after swearing on Bibles and them imposing a theocratic decision on them? Are you? Were you surprised by that? And are you planning to start a thread calling them out on that, or do you reserve that for only when it goes against Christianity? If not, why are you objecting to "not one of them object[ing] to Tyson's fictions"? On what grounds? To be fair to the church?

I'm reminded of the Republicans complaining about stolen elections and witch hunts. Both of those are false, but that's irrelevant to my point. Even if they were true, is a Trump detractor expected to object that those were done / are being done to Trump? Don't hold your breath. Such people aren't entitled to the same treatment as those that respect such things. The Republicans are already announcing the witch hunts they have lined up if they regain the House. My point here is that people are not entitled to better treatment than they offer. If the Republicans played fair and had an election stolen from them and witch hunt investigations conducted, I would consider that unfair and would object. But not under these circumstances. Do whatever you will to them. It is impossible to be unfair to them short of shooting one in the face.

This is analogous. Being lose with the truth is not a value I respect, but I sure don't mind it aimed at an institution that routinely lies to gain an advantage. Isn't all creationist apologetics a non-stop lie? I don't believe that Tyson was knowingly lying, but it's like with the stolen election claim: even if it were true, who's expected to object apart the victims of the shenanigans, and for what reason? The American church in cooperation with the Republican party is an existential threat to America. Both need to be stopped by any means possible, and anything that weakens either is good for the country and the humanist agenda.

[I just saw a story on the news about a preacher that was robbed of over a million dollars worth of valuable jewelry while preaching in a church? Shall we object to that as well because stealing is wrong? Of course not. The man's a liar and a thief if he's a wealthy pastor.]
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Does religious belief stifle innovation, though? Are there really more examples of religion stifling innovation than of promoting it? My understanding is that most scientists, engineers and inventors from the Renaissance until the end of the c.19th had some sort of religious faith, and a good number of them were clerics.
But back then, everyone was religious (at least publicly), and the clergy was the default occupation for many upper-middle class academics. It seems reasonable to argue that without the necessary assumption that a god was at work behind observable phenomena, progress may well have been quicker. Certainly (to reference an example in the OP), while Ghazali may not have called maths "the devil's work", he did insist that every observable phenomenon was individually caused by god's intervention, rather than by a set of fixed, physical laws that could be used to make predictions.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
And "very wrong"? I don't know about that. He does not appear to be very wrong about Al. He may have not openly stated that math is the work of the devil, but he does appear to be one of the prime movers away from the Golden Age of Islam.
Careful now. Because Ghazali is not generally considered to be the sole cause of the decline of the Golden Age, you may find yourself being accused of being "very wrong" yourself. :rolleyes:
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
I'm not sure it would even be possible to make a considered argument against that, even if one spent a lifetime doing it.
Personally, I prefer to criticise the religious ideology itself as laid down in "holy scripture", rather than attempting to address the way billions of individuals from different backgrounds approach their personal interpretation of said scripture (or as is often the case, an acquired idea that is not necessarily based on scripture at all).
Interesting. Why focus on "holy scripture", though? Surely the actual teaching of the religion in question, and the thought of its theologians, is a lot more fundamental, isn't it? After all, not all religions have a "holy scripture", and most of those that do devote considerable effort to how it should be interpreted.
 
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