Crowley wasn't a satanist.

[Mr Cheese]

He was not a "Satanist." He was/is misunderstood at most. The man was very brilliant and those serious about magick can surely learn from his work. :yes:

those serious about magick know they can learn many things from crowley...

but its a bit like washing yourself in pig excrement and telling everyone you smell nice......

There really is no need for Crowley there are far better people, if you are "serious" about magick.....

gray, stewart, matthews, knight, bardon, heindel, fortune, ashcroft-nowicki, regardie,... to name a few

"I invoke you by your names: To Mega Therion! Perdurabo! Baphomet! The
Beast 666! Fo-Hi! Count Alexander Svareff! Chiao Khan! Alys! etc. Come
thou forthwith, without delay, from any and all parts of the world thou mayest be, and make rational answers unto all things that we shall demand of thee, for thou art conjured up by the name of the living and true god Xerox!"

 

[Octavia156]

Guys

Where to start!

 

[Octavia156]

not a satanist maybe...

but then sexual relations with a goat
being kicked out of Italy by Mussolini...
eating his own feces

This is basic Left-hand path Tantric practise. In Tanrta one aims to break 'Maya - the illusion of reality' by de-programming yourself. In India they would practise anything that was 'Taboo' in order to become closer to God (might seem odd but if you think about it long enough it does make sense) So if you are a vege you eat meat. If you fear heights you do a bungy jump, if you are a prude - you go to a fetish club. "Undoing yourself" for many is the first stage of ego loss

Again, it might seem odd to the western view, but it is not uncommon in the East, and does have a huge part to play in the mystic process of " Union through Ego Loss"

Don't knock what you don't yet understand!

....

 

[Octavia156]

Crowley is really fiflth, in my opinion
He pretty much stole everything
Dedicated his life to giving God the finger
Created the Thelemic Gnostic Mass

He did indeed dedicate his life to giving the Judeo-Christian god the full blown middle finger!!

He hated Christianity, he was brought up strict Plymouth Brethren.
But he was profoundly spiritual.
And he did more work with Angels than anyone since John Dee and Edward Kelly.

I imagine you would think Crowley filthy if you had a limited experience of his works.
It takes a little while to get his sense of humour!

Again, don't be too keen to knock what you don't know much about, it seems like you have focused on a very few negative facts, and even in those you seem to have missed the point slightly.

Have you seen a Gnostic Mass by any chance?

I understand as a Gnostic you would abhor the idea. In truth, the Gnostic Mass is not really a Gnostic Mass - its just a Mass. The only people it is really a Gnostic Mass for are the Priest and Priestess.
Again, its worth careful study before you reject it completely.

 

[Caladan]

Controversial during his own life, and still a catalyst for various criticism and strange comments. despite the differing passionate views about him, it would remain a great ignorance to ignore Crowley's legacy. he influenced neopaganism, Wicca, Satanism and gained numerous references and even cult following in popular culture, from Alan Moore's work to Led Zeppelin. his Thoth Tarot deck still remains one of the classic decks. Crowley will always remain a figure impossible to ignore in modern 'Occultism', neopaganism, and Satanism.

 

[Octavia156]

What some don't realize is that Set too spoke in the "Book of the Law". Most will not agree with this and cast it aside, however, here are some excerpts from the Setian document "The Book of Coming Forth by Night":

"And I Set, spoke too in the Book of the Law - Aye! Listen to the numbers and the words-

4638 ABK29 ALGMOR3YX (24) (89) RPSTOVAL

- What meaneth this, o prophet? Thou knowest not; nor shalt thou know ever. There cometh one to follow thee; he shall expound it."

"And many of the Aeon of HarWer (Horus) sought to read this but could not. Nor could the Magus (Crowley) himself. Though he guessed rightly at its simplicity. It was said that every number is infinite - hence each number or sum of joined numbers became merely the corresponding letter."

The random letters and numbers in the above statement from Liber AL ("The Book of the Law") are explained thusly: 4 is the fourth letter in the alphabet D, 6 is the sixth letter F, 3 is the third letter C, etc. The sum of the joined numbers 24/2+4=6=F and 89/8+9=17=1+7=8=H; in keeping with the consistancy of only a one digit number as the sum. Each letter represents the first letter of a word.

"The Book of Coming Forth by Night" goes on to expound the code:

"Now it has come to pass, and the Book of the Law is laid bare -

"Destined First Century Heir - Aquino - breaking Keys by doctrines Anton LaVey - great Magus of reconsecration coming Year Xeper - founding his rightful Priesthood - Set - true origin Volume AL."

Of course, one can take this or leave it. But in all honesty the coinsidences are quite striking. Dr. Michael Aquino, founding member of the Temple of Set could very well be that second Magus spoken of in the "Book of the Law".

Just something to think about.

I should also add, that as a Setian I also incorporate the Aeonic Word Thelema as a major part of my own Magickal philosophy and practice.

Xeper!
/Adramelek\

93

Although the Book of Coming's interpretation is an excellent decryption, the true Cipher came out of the work of Crowley's magickal Son, Charles Stansfield Jones (Fr Achad) who inadvertantly solved the riddle and left his followers to make the final link.

The secret code of AL is detailed in the New Aeon English Qabala by Gerald de Campo.
The key is not just in those letters, they served only as the qabalistic proof.

What Achad et al, deciphered was linked to the random line that had been drawn through one of the pages of the manuscript III:47 "This line drawn is a key". It transpires this line, when mapped on a grid shows a specific alpha-numerical system based on the English Alphabet (the lang of the Book of the Law)
If you apply this specific system to the seemingly random group of letters in Chapter II:76, adding their letters and the numbers you get the number 351. If you add all the numbers in the English Qabala that is 1+2+3...... +26 you get...... wait for it......351.

Thats enough substantial evidence for me. So i'm not convinced by the Setian argument, then again it doesn't have any use to me, whereas the NAEQ does.

 

[Mr Cheese]

This is basic Left-hand path Tantric practise. In Tanrta one aims to break 'Maya - the illusion of reality' by de-programming yourself. In India they would practise anything that was 'Taboo' in order to become closer to God (might seem odd but if you think about it long enough it does make sense) So if you are a vege you eat meat. If you fear heights you do a bungy jump, if you are a prude - you go to a fetish club. "Undoing yourself" for many is the first stage of ego loss

Again, it might seem odd to the western view, but it is not uncommon in the East, and does have a huge part to play in the mystic process of " Union through Ego Loss"

Don't knock what you don't yet understand!

....

I fail to see how the LHP seeks union...

Oh I understand it...

It is still akin to washing yourself with pig poop and claiming you smell sweet after.

You are honestly telling me the goat sex incident, eating poop and ALL the other wonderful things Crowley may or may not have done was in the pursuit of "union"....?

Thats a bit like saying

"He chopped off his legs, in order to break through the barrier of wearing lycra during a 100M race"

... uh huh

Next you'll be telling me he was a great kabbalist too..... and no he wasn't... why? because he simply wasnt well read enough to be!

The LHP is not about union.... the exact opposite in fact...

do you intend to eat your own feces?


:sarcastic cakes of light anyone?

 

[Mr Cheese]

He did indeed dedicate his life to giving the Judeo-Christian god the full blown middle finger!!

He hated Christianity, he was brought up strict Plymouth Brethren.
But he was profoundly spiritual.
And he did more work with Angels than anyone since John Dee and Edward Kelly.

.

Giving God the finger, yet he sought union.....

Such stances become childish and pathetic....revolution and going your own way is great...but to what end if that is all you have? We clearly see...INSANITY

any decent kabbalist worth their salt knows angels are a part of any and all forms of kabbalah...frankly what did crowley do that was so spectacular?

I imagine you would think Crowley filthy if you had a limited experience of his works.
It takes a little while to get his sense of humour!

.

Eating your own excrement
cakes of light
sexual relationships with goats

hardy har....
I'm laughing.....

Again, don't be too keen to knock what you don't know much about, it seems like you have focused on a very few negative facts, and even in those you seem to have missed the point slightly.
.

Yes I know, crowley's supporter's seem to think his "good acts" outweigh his absurdities.....

:sarcastic Yes I want to follow in the footsteps of a man who thought pumping himself full of heroin, summoning demons, eating feces etc.....
is following the great work....

not so much Visitae interiora terrae rectificando invenies occultum lapdem

more visit the darkest interior of yourself, cover yourself in poop, parade and dance around, laugh at your own followers and people who will follow in your footsteps.....

and claim to be acting in accordance with true will

:areyoucra uh huh....

I can really see Crowley's acts are in accordance with Roscrucian values too, modeern devolved 19th century esk or 15th century "originals"
although the fama does decalre that the pope must die... or is it the confessio?

Have you seen a Gnostic Mass by any chance?

.

no I actually have not, but pictures are freely available, as are the scripts...
and I have spoken to many participants.......

and maybe ALL of the NUMEROUS rumors of sexual abuse are untrue...
stories of inititiates having to perform acts to "get to the next level" (mainly women of course)...yes maybe ALL of these stories are untrue....

but you know........maybe they arent...

whatever the truth....

again this is hardly an indication of anythign wholesome or anythign that could be considered a pursuit of Union!

Filth is filth

Although I understand that the OTO eand most thelemic groups have devolved largely into social clubs much like the masons....

so maybe Crowley's legacy is all hot air and many books sold to suckers all stating the same blind and convoluted half truths and deliberate lies...all purporting to be the "standard way"

I understand as a Gnostic you would abhor the idea. In truth, the Gnostic Mass is not really a Gnostic Mass - its just a Mass. The only people it is really a Gnostic Mass for are the Priest and Priestess.
Again, its worth careful study before you reject it completely.

:sarcastic in what way is it worth study?

 

[Mr Cheese]

Controversial during his own life, and still a catalyst for various criticism and strange comments. despite the differing passionate views about him, it would remain a great ignorance to ignore Crowley's legacy. he influenced neopaganism, Wicca, Satanism and gained numerous references and even cult following in popular culture, from Alan Moore's work to Led Zeppelin. his Thoth Tarot deck still remains one of the classic decks. Crowley will always remain a figure impossible to ignore in modern 'Occultism', neopaganism, and Satanism.

If I poop on some paper, the smell is hard to ignore also...

But yes you're right, Crowley is everywhere,,,,...

as is poop

..
Although i do like much of "England's Hidden Reverse" and all the apocalyptic escatological based music that was influenced by Crowley...
well soem of it.... not so big into Sol Invictus...but Current 93 are cool...Swastikas for noddy is still a classic..as is thunder the perferct mind. Coil's Musick to play in the dark is also a set of classics

Genesis P does look kinda hot for a dude in his 50's or 60's wearing a mini skirt and double D implants...
Jhon balance was a great loss....
..........
Pay your respects to the vultures
for they are your future
Your fathers and mothers have failed to release us
Into the welcoming arms of the amethyst decievers

--coil

Love is the law...
United
United

--throbbing gristle

 

[Adramelek]

Dear All,

Don't get me wrong, Crowley was a great Magician. His book "Magick In Theory and Practice" is a vital part of my library. He also had a very strong command of the English language, though he did tend to ramble on and on and on:sleep:. It's also well known that he was addicted to opium. I am under the suspicion that the "Book of the Law" was written during an opium enduced trance. That would explain its occasional confusion and incoherence. Though there are many truths to be found within it. I would also venture to say that Crowley was not semantically a "Satanist" but was indeed a Black Brother.

The BoCFbN was transcribed by Dr. Aquino during a ritual invocation to the Prince of Darkness, completely sober during a time of great Need as LaVey was degrading the Church of Satan into a source of personal income for himself.

For me personally, and I can speak for all Setians on this matter. It is no concern to us whether the BoCFbN is accepted as Truth by the un-Initiated. Nor is it required by the ToS that Setians accept it as a Truth. There is no indoctrination or dogma in the Temple of Set. The Setian is the master of his/her own mind and will, the forger of their own destiny in Life, free to develop his own Magical system, his own belief system; so long, of course, as it coincides with the basic principles of the LHP. This is the premise of Setianism.

The Temple of Set is not in competition with any other religion be it the Church of Satan or any other group. The Temple has no use nor the time for this. The Temple feels that its Path is essentially correct, because it's methods have proven to Work time and time again.

Xeper!
/Adramelek\

 

[blackout]

My only "connection" with Crowley is his Thoth Deck.


Personally my Own (LH)Path twists and turns just fine without him.

WHO really, does a LHPer need, to define their Own Path, but their Own Self?

Sure, we are each influenced by whoever we find ourSelves influenced by.
But the LHP initiate, initiates his or her OWN path.

As for the tiresome "poop" fixation.
I see people eating up ALL KINDS of Crap. Daily.
All around me.
Some of it spoonfed as scheduled,
some of it force fed,
some digested in small doses,
some of it "consumed" in "volumes".
People tend to to buy their dung all pre-packaged
and sometimes even have it giftwrapped,
quite often at a hefty price.
... and then some people prefer to repeatedly eat, smell,
and regurgitate their own ****. Ad neaseum.
How very LHP of them.

*rolls eyes*

UV wishes she had superior **** too.
/close sarcasm

 

[Mr Cheese]

My only "connection" with Crowley is his Thoth Deck.


Personally my Own (LH)Path twists and turns just fine without him.

WHO really, does a LHPer need, to define their Own Path, but their Own Self?

Sure, we are each influenced by whoever we find ourSelves influenced by.
But the LHP initiate, initiates his or her OWN path.

As for the tiresome "poop" fixation.
I see people eating up ALL KINDS of Crap. Daily.
All around me.
Some of it spoonfed as scheduled,
some of it force fed,
some digested in small doses,
some of it "consumed" in "volumes".
People tend to to buy their dung all pre-packaged
and sometimes even have it giftwrapped,
quite often at a hefty price.
... and then some people prefer to repeatedly eat, smell,
and regurgitate their own ****. Ad neaseum.
How very LHP of them.

*rolls eyes*

UV wishes she had superior **** too.
/close sarcasm

thank you UV.....

the difference is, crowley supposedly literally did munch his own....

I think you raise a valid point though, an LHP initiate is their own... there is no sense in surrender and longing for union, as the LHP is a path of self creation, self exhaltation and power. It is not going with the flow, it is causing the flow to flow under the will of the participant. as such I fail to see how this is a pursuit of surrender and union... perhaps I am wrong, it would be interesting to hear how the LHP is not what I think it is.

If you practise any kind of lhp magick though, I assure you it is most likely derived from crowley in some form.... I have no real idea of what you "do" though.....

 

[Adramelek]

there is no sense in surrender and longing for union, as the LHP is a path of self creation, self exhaltation and power. It is not going with the flow, it is causing the flow to flow under the will of the participant.

You've essentially got it right concerning the Left-Hand Path. It is an Alchemical Path of conscious Self-Creation, Self-deification, and Actualization, and a Quest for the knowledge, Truth, and undefiled wisdom of the Self and the Prince of Darkness. UltraViolet is a good friend of mine, and I'm sure she understands and practices these Principles of the Path of Darkness. She seems to be fastly coming into her own as a very competent Sorceress of the Black Arts.

And yes, I would also agree to some extent that Crowley has had an impact on LHP Magic, as he himself practiced it often... Thelema= True Will is a LHP philosophy - "Do what thou Wilt." In other words, uncover your True Will and actualize it in the real world. Whether Crowley wanted to admit it or not he was a Black Brother.

Xeper in Ma'at!
:bat:
/Adramelek\

 

[SkinnyCheruscian]

Hmm, Crowley.

Where I had a chance to dip superficially in his wrtitings, I found them pompous and boring.

They only work on the assumption that he possesses some secret code. Then it's layers over layeres of arcane symbols on top of it, always interspersed with statements that those who understand will understand. I found it tedious and pretentious.

I came into contact with C's writings through some one in my family, who got it probably very wrong, ended quite badly. Anyway, this person's background and Crowley's showed quite some parallels, very strict puritan upbringing, early death of father, over-whelming devout mother.

Moreover, I see that in countries with a strong puritan strain of christianity, "satanism" is strong (such as Norway and US). Dont get me wrong, I am aware of differences between different streams of satanism, and that occultism and satanism is not the same. Also I don't want to make sweeping statements on christianity. All I am saying is that the flirtation with the occult sometimes relates to the negative importance atrributed to it by certain branches of Christianity.

 

[blackout]

thank you UV.....

the difference is, crowley supposedly literally did munch his own....

I think you raise a valid point though, an LHP initiate is their own... there is no sense in surrender and longing for union, as the LHP is a path of self creation, self exhaltation and power. It is not going with the flow, it is causing the flow to flow under the will of the participant. as such I fail to see how this is a pursuit of surrender and union... perhaps I am wrong, it would be interesting to hear how the LHP is not what I think it is.

If you practise any kind of lhp magick though, I assure you it is most likely derived from crowley in some form.... I have no real idea of what you "do" though.....

I would like to talk about this idea of "going with the flow".

What flow exactly do you think people go by each day?

Who'se flow?
Society's flow?
Their own flow?
The flow of natural necessitiy?
The flow of man made/created necessity?
The flow of whim?
The flow of the expectations of people around them?

What flow?

I really cannot go on,
until this question is answered.

 

[blackout]

What if you don't LIKE the flow of the people around you.
Are you just suppposed to "go with the flow" like an imbicille?
Because "going with the flow" is the "proper" thing to do?
(and because it causes far less friction... which does not in turn disturb the 'sacred' flow...)

What if the flow of your family is...
"everyone is thus and such in this family",
but you don't want to be "thus and such".

Whose flow should you follow?

What if you decide you want to be able to do something well,
like ... play the piano....
but your own "natural flow" is of a "lazier" sort.
Should you just go with your "lazy" flow...
or RAISE UP YOUR WILL TO PLAY THE PIANO....
and create a NEW flow in yourSelf?

 

[blackout]

Certainly you must not support leaders of any kind,
as leaders do not "go" with the flow...
they CREATE the flow.

 

[blackout]

What if going with one's own natural and easy flow...
means... shhhhh....
"Magick Making"......

or would you prefer we all went with "your" flow... instead...

 

[blackout]

I think everyone should just stop attending school daily
and going to work on a schedule
so that they might better "go with the organic flow".

There should not, in fact, be ANY "schedule making"
as it is an (attempt at) enforced flow
superimposed over the truer spontanious flow of life.

Are we all supposed to walk around our whole lives simply "reacting" to what we're handed?
(riding the flows actually CREATED by other people, not to mention..)

Look. If "passive flow riding" is your thing, I have no problem with that.
But to exault it? As some be all end all?

Now if what you're REALLY talking about is living deeply in the moment,
you are confusing issues.
I am deeply and vibrantly alive in the moment
when I Transform by means of Magick.
As well my Magick is all inSpired
as the flow of my life/personal Reality, brings things together.
My Higher Creative Self is not "subject"
to the flow/s surrounding it, but is HEIRESS of that flow...
an Heiress of Source / SourceHeiress / Sorceress...
to CREATE there...
to fashion New and Wonderful things as I AM inSpired.

There is an infinite potential of "reality layers".
("infinity" is black/dark/void until form is cast there)
Each reality will have it's own flow.
We do not all reside in the same flow,
even as we aparantely stand right next to one another.
Some of us like to "play with/in the 'current',
some people just like to "raft around" as the wind blows.


Different strokes.

 

[blackout]

thank you UV.....

You're quite welcome.....

the difference is, crowley supposedly literally did munch his own.........

And so who really cares if he did or didn't?

Besides. Maybe HIS poop was special. :rainbow1:

I think you raise a valid point though, an LHP initiate is their own... there is no sense in surrender and longing for union, as the LHP is a path of self creation, self exhaltation and power. It is not going with the flow, it is causing the flow to flow under the will of the participant. as such I fail to see how this is a pursuit of surrender and union... perhaps I am wrong, it would be interesting to hear how the LHP is not what I think it is.

Who EXACTLY would you have me "surrender" to?
Why would I long for "union"?
The UniVerse is the UniVerse.
The totality of existence and potential existence
is all of the same "thing".
How do you propose we break it apart,
that we may "bring it together" in "union" again?

If you practise any kind of lhp magick though, I assure you it is most likely derived from crowley in some form.... I have no real idea of what you "do" though.....

I follow the flow of my own Path.

Besides Ultraviolet Luminescence which I had in my room
as a teen LONG before I'd ever even heard of Crowley,
(and which he did not discover/create/manufacture)
... everysingle other thing I use in ritual,
either existed (in use) LONG before him,
or came along afterwards (in manufacturing).

I AM LHP, and I do not in any way define mySelf by Crowley.
or anyone else.
I define mySelf.