Crucifixion and Atonement - I Don't Understand

[loverOfTruth]

the bible paints quite a different picture of the reason for death. The Genesis account shows that Adam had the opportunity to live forever....God warned him what would happen if he disobeyed Gods laws, death would result.
Genesis 2:15 And Jehovah God proceeded to take the man and settle him in the garden of E′den to cultivate it and to take care of it. 16 And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.

So if Adam never ate from the tree, he would never have died. Death was only the result of disobedience to Gods laws.

I am quite aware of the fact that we have a different view of Death and not to mention that we do not believe Adam died after sinning (he was sent to earth from paradise). But that's not what we are discussing here. The point is even according to your view of death (i.e. death happens because of sin) - your argument("that God will not demand the death penalty which is the divine requirement for sin") which you claimed earlier cannot be supported and in fact contradicts what is stated in Ezekiel 18 : "21 But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. 22 None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live." (Ezekiel 18:21-22)

So 1) Ezekiel contradicts what you said about Death being divine requirement for Sin. Because if a person can LIVE after repentance from Sin, what you state is false. 2)If a person can LIVE after repentance and not DIE(for sin) then they don't need anyone else's sacrifice to save them, and 3) If God will not demand death penalty anymore because Christ paid the penalty by his sacrifice , no one should be dying anymore. Payment has already been made - why do people still die ? Why is God not providing the Service even after Receiving the Payment ?

 

[F0uad]

So you complain because I made a mild impersonal negative comment about Muslim debaters in general, and then you make a bunch of personal negative comments about me specifically. That is somewhat hypocritical. I leave you with it. I just do not have the time.

Read my last sentence and stop being childish.

 

[Pegg]

I am quite aware of the fact that we have a different view of Death and not to mention that we do not believe Adam died after sinning (he was sent to earth from paradise). But that's not what we are discussing here. The point is even according to your view of death (i.e. death happens because of sin) - your argument("that God will not demand the death penalty which is the divine requirement for sin") which you claimed earlier cannot be supported and in fact contradicts what is stated in Ezekiel 18 : "21 But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. 22 None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live." (Ezekiel 18:21-22)

So 1) Ezekiel contradicts what you said about Death being divine requirement for Sin. Because if a person can LIVE after repentance from Sin, what you state is false. 2)If a person can LIVE after repentance and not DIE(for sin) then they don't need anyone else's sacrifice to save them, and 3) If God will not demand death penalty anymore because Christ paid the penalty by his sacrifice , no one should be dying anymore. Payment has already been made - why do people still die ? Why is God not providing the Service even after Receiving the Payment ?

people change the context of verses all the time. You added an idea to the text in Ezekiel that Ezekiel simply does not mention. Ezekiel does not speak about 'everlasting life' ...but that is the context you added to that verse.

The divine requirement for sin is clearly stated in the torah.
Genesis 2:16 And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.”

Ezekiel 18:4 Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.


And the Jewish christians understood the reason for death...it is also clearly stated in the greek scriptures:

Romans 5:12 That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned
Romans 6:23 For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord.


I dont expect you to believe the bible, i know you use a different book, but according to the bible, sin is the reason for death among mankind.

 

[1robin]

Read my last sentence and stop being childish.

There is nothing childish about pointing out the fact that you are even more guilty of doing what you complained of. There however is, in the doing of it. I also do not see how this sentence:

I think your confused what i was trying to point out, it is the Criminal part to let them go free. Anyway i want to ask you to stop replying on me if you have nothing relevant to say.

Has any bearing on that.

 

[loverOfTruth]

people change the context of verses all the time. You added an idea to the text in Ezekiel that Ezekiel simply does not mention. Ezekiel does not speak about 'everlasting life' ...but that is the context you added to that verse.

The divine requirement for sin is clearly stated in the torah.
Genesis 2:16 And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.”

Ezekiel 18:4 Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.


And the Jewish christians understood the reason for death...it is also clearly stated in the greek scriptures:

Romans 5:12 That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned
Romans 6:23 For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord.


I dont expect you to believe the bible, i know you use a different book, but according to the bible, sin is the reason for death among mankind.

Ok, I agree that I am interpreting 'Live' to be 'Living forever' but the reason I am doing it is because it clearly says 'that person will surely live; they will not die'.

Read what it says again : Ezekiel 18. "21 But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins ... that person will surely live; they will not die. "

So what else does 'live but not die mean' ? So it is you, who is completely ignoring the fact that it say 'if one repents, they will not die'. So you are the one adding stuff to the context here. How many deaths do you die ? As far as I know, everyone dies only once. So if it says 'they will not die' it really means 'they WILL NOT die' - how can they die after this statement again in future ?

 

[nazz]

Ok, I agree that I am interpreting 'Live' to be 'Living forever' but the reason I am doing it is because it clearly says 'that person will surely live; they will not die'.

Read what it says again : Ezekiel 18. "21 But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins ... that person will surely live; they will not die. "

So what else does 'live but not die mean' ? So it is you, who is completely ignoring the fact that it say 'if one repents, they will not die'. So you are the one adding stuff to the context here. How many deaths do you die ? As far as I know, everyone dies only once. So if it says 'they will not die' it really means 'they WILL NOT die' - how can they die after this statement again in future ?

Actually I think Pegg has a point. "Will not die" does not necessarily mean live forever. Think about someone who is maybe at the point of death in the hospital. But they recover and the doctor tells the family "they are not going to die". The doctor does not mean they will never die.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Actually I think Pegg has a point. "Will not die" does not necessarily mean live forever. Think about someone who is maybe at the point of death in the hospital. But they recover and the doctor tells the family "they are not going to die". The doctor does not mean they will never die.

In the context you have stated - sure. But not in the context of Ezekiel 18. This is how it ends : 32 "For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!"

God takes no pleasures in giving 'DEATH' - so He asks people to Repent and Live. How can God still give you a painful DEATH after stating this (when one has Repented) ?

 

[Pegg]

Ok, I agree that I am interpreting 'Live' to be 'Living forever' but the reason I am doing it is because it clearly says 'that person will surely live; they will not die'.

Read what it says again : Ezekiel 18. "21 But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins ... that person will surely live; they will not die. "

So what else does 'live but not die mean' ? So it is you, who is completely ignoring the fact that it say 'if one repents, they will not die'. So you are the one adding stuff to the context here. How many deaths do you die ? As far as I know, everyone dies only once. So if it says 'they will not die' it really means 'they WILL NOT die' - how can they die after this statement again in future ?

you dont think that it could simply mean that a person who repents will not be put to death by divine law?

When King David committed an act of adultery with Bathsheba, and when he had her husband killed, God sent his prophet Nathan to lay bare Davids sin.... when David repented, God did not demand the death penalty even though that was the requirement under the mosaic law.

So if you were an Isrealite being told that if you repent you will surely live, then they would have understood that to mean that they would be forgiven immediately and not have to pay for the sin with their life. And there are many more examples where people were forgiven and permitted to continue living rather then being put to death. The people of the city of Nivneva are a good example. God had sent Jonah to the city to inform them that God was bringing judgment (death) upon them for their wickedness....but when they heard it they all repented and God did not bring death upon them because of their repentance.

does that make sense?

 

[nazz]

In the context you have stated - sure. But not in the context of Ezekiel 18. This is how it ends : 32 "For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!"

God takes no pleasures in giving 'DEATH' - so He asks people to Repent and Live. How can God still give you a painful DEATH after stating this (when one has Repented) ?

Well that is a whole other question. I agree with you that death is not due to sin.

 

[loverOfTruth]

you dont think that it could simply mean that a person who repents will not be put to death by divine law?

When King David committed an act of adultery with Bathsheba, and when he had her husband killed, God sent his prophet Nathan to lay bare Davids sin.... when David repented, God did not demand the death penalty even though that was the requirement under the mosaic law.

So if you were an Isrealite being told that if you repent you will surely live, then they would have understood that to mean that they would be forgiven immediately and not have to pay for the sin with their life. And there are many more examples where people were forgiven and permitted to continue living rather then being put to death. The people of the city of Nivneva are a good example. God had sent Jonah to the city to inform them that God was bringing judgment (death) upon them for their wickedness....but when they heard it they all repented and God did not bring death upon them because of their repentance.

does that make sense?

So you mean Death sentence ? That sure does make sense. But then the mention of 'you shall die if you sin' has to be taken in the context of Death sentence as well and not Physical death. They are not the same. Not every sinner dies per death sentence and hence Jesus's sacrifice has nothing to do with it.

 

[Me Myself]

God´s line of thought:

1-Men sinned and I will not allow myself to bring him with me even if he begs for it because eating an apple obviously means he wants torture.

2-Let´s make the fruit(PUN!) of his choice to be hereditary.

3-Wait, now the problem is bigger.

4-Don´t kill your son Abraham! this is an abomination to me!

5-What was I thinking? Oh yeah, how to solve the sin problem, I get so distracted when I am creating.

6-I know! I will...

7-Problem solved.

8- Logic? Phh!, I am God

 

[loverOfTruth]

Well that is a whole other question. I agree with you that death is not due to sin.

That's my point. At least from Ezekiel 18, you either say You die physically because of Sin and hence you don't die physically if you repent (i.e. live forever) OR you say both the die and live due to sin and repentance is not physical - in which case Jesus's(pbuh) sacrifice has nothing to do with sin/death penalty etc. Can't have it both ways.

 

[Pegg]

So you mean Death sentence ? That sure does make sense. But then the mention of 'you shall die if you sin' has to be taken in the context of Death sentence as well and not Physical death. They are not the same. Not every sinner dies per death sentence and hence Jesus's sacrifice has nothing to do with it.

Adam was told that he would die if he disobeyed Gods law...to disobey is sin.

So regardless of what you believe, the bible is clear that sin brings forth death. And that is why the role of the Messiah was foretold to 'remove sin' so that 'death would be no more'
Many scriptures explain this...ie:

Isaiah 25:8 He will actually swallow up death forever, and the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will certainly wipe the tears from all faces. And the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, for Jehovah himself has spoken [it].

Hosea 13:14 “From the hand of She′ol I shall redeem them; from death I shall recover them. Where are your stings, O Death?...

Psalm 37:29 “The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.”

John 3:14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so the Son of man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone believing in him may have everlasting life.
16 “For God loved the w that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting lifeorld so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order

Revelation 21:4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”


If God is going to make it possible for death to 'be no more' it means that it was never a part of his purpose in the first place. So when Adam sinned, he brought death upon himself and his children...God, through the Messiah, will rectify that injustice so that mankind CAN live forever.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Adam was told that he would die if he disobeyed Gods law...to disobey is sin.

So regardless of what you believe, the bible is clear that sin brings forth death. And that is why the role of the Messiah was foretold to 'remove sin' so that 'death would be no more'
Many scriptures explain this...ie:

Isaiah 25:8 He will actually swallow up death forever, and the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will certainly wipe the tears from all faces. And the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, for Jehovah himself has spoken [it].

Hosea 13:14 “From the hand of She′ol I shall redeem them; from death I shall recover them. Where are your stings, O Death?...

Psalm 37:29 “The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.”

John 3:14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so the Son of man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone believing in him may have everlasting life.
16 “For God loved the w that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting lifeorld so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order

Revelation 21:4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”


If God is going to make it possible for death to 'be no more' it means that it was never a part of his purpose in the first place. So when Adam sinned, he brought death upon himself and his children...God, through the Messiah, will rectify that injustice so that mankind CAN live forever.

But those are contradictory to Ezekiel 18 - only one can be true (if you take sin causes physical death).

 

[Pegg]

But those are contradictory to Ezekiel 18 - only one can be true (if you take sin causes physical death).

interesting isnt it.

The above scritpures only contradict Ezekiel if you believe that life was never meant to be forever, that death is natural and its what God intended.

Yet God himself says that he will remove death from us.
So it cannot be both. Either we were created to die, and therefore our death has nothing to do with sin, or sin is the reason for death.

 

[loverOfTruth]

interesting isnt it.

The above scritpures only contradict Ezekiel if you believe that life was never meant to be forever, that death is natural and its what God intended.

Yet God himself says that he will remove death from us.
So it cannot be both. Either we were created to die, and therefore our death has nothing to do with sin, or sin is the reason for death.

I guess if you think Contradiction in God's word is interesting - then it is interesting.

I'll conclude with one observation that was mentioned in the following video :

That is : If someone needs to pay for the wrong done, it is not True Forgiveness.

Think about this scenario. I steal money from you and then later come to you to ask for forgiveness for my action. You tell me that since you are really forgiving and gracious, you will forgive me but with one condition - that is, that innocent Joe over there has to pay you the money back. That is not Forgiveness.

[youtube]cEZ1B2-F4v0[/youtube]
The Concept of sin in Islam and Christianity - YouTube

Peace.

 

[Pegg]

I guess if you think Contradiction in God's word is interesting - then it is interesting.

I'll conclude with one observation that was mentioned in the following video :

That is : If someone needs to pay for the wrong done, it is not True Forgiveness.

Think about this scenario. I steal money from you and then later come to you to ask for forgiveness for my action. You tell me that since you are really forgiving and gracious, you will forgive me but with one condition - that is, that innocent Joe over there has to pay you the money back. That is not Forgiveness.

[youtube]cEZ1B2-F4v0[/youtube]
The Concept of sin in Islam and Christianity - YouTube

Peace.

nice illustration, except you are the one who must pay back what you stole. If you stole $100, you have to pay back $100. If you stole 1million dollars, you have to pay back 1million dollars.

But what if you spent the money and have no way of paying it back, then somone like Joe comes along and offers to pay the money on your behalf? Joe doesnt have to do this, but he does it out of love for you. The owner of the money accepts the money because it has been returned to him, he doesnt care where the money comes from as long as he gets it back, right?

And that is what Jesus did for mankind. Jesus is Joe who gives himself in exchange for you, 'life for life' as is required under the mosaic law. God accepts that exchange because God knows that you are not able to pay back what you owe and therefore you need someone to pay it back so that you can be released from the debt....and in our case the debt is death. Sure you can pay it if you want, but if you would rather redeem your life, then you need someone to pay the debt for you.

 

[loverOfTruth]

nice illustration, except you are the one who must pay back what you stole. If you stole $100, you have to pay back $100. If you stole 1million dollars, you have to pay back 1million dollars.

But what if you spent the money and have no way of paying it back, then somone like Joe comes along and offers to pay the money on your behalf? Joe doesnt have to do this, but he does it out of love for you. The owner of the money accepts the money because it has been returned to him, he doesnt care where the money comes from as long as he gets it back, right?

And that is what Jesus did for mankind. Jesus is Joe who gives himself in exchange for you, 'life for life' as is required under the mosaic law. God accepts that exchange because God knows that you are not able to pay back what you owe and therefore you need someone to pay it back so that you can be released from the debt....and in our case the debt is death. Sure you can pay it if you want, but if you would rather redeem your life, then you need someone to pay the debt for you.

Exactly - my point. That Joe seems to be a very nice and caring guy to do that for others - but what about Joe's Master, God ? Not so much All Loving and All Forgiving, after all ? He now looks like a payback requiring conditional bestower of mercy. He needs a payback to Forgive, so He is not so God like - God forbid.

Peace.

 

[Pegg]

Exactly - my point. That Joe seems to be a very nice and caring guy to do that for others - but what about Joe's Master, God ? Not so much All Loving and All Forgiving, after all ? He now looks like a payback requiring conditional bestower of mercy. He needs a payback to Forgive, so He is not so God like - God forbid.

Peace.

Gods universal laws were set long before man came on the scene. God does not break or ignore his own laws so when Adam broke that law, God could not simply overlook it and allow Adam to continue to live without the justice of law applied to him. Its not payback as if God is taking revenge on Adam... death is a natural justifiable consequence of breaking Gods laws.

God did not need to redeem us from this condition, but out of love and mercy he chose to do so.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Gods universal laws were set long before man came on the scene. God does not break or ignore his own laws so when Adam broke that law, God could not simply overlook it and allow Adam to continue to live without the justice of law applied to him. Its not payback as if God is taking revenge on Adam... death is a natural justifiable consequence of breaking Gods laws.

God did not need to redeem us from this condition, but out of love and mercy he chose to do so.

But He NEEDED the payment of Jesus's(pubh) sacrifice to forgive All. Otherwise, anyone and everyone regardless will go to Heaven.