Cultural Appropriation

[Flankerl]

Why say that? I don't get the joke?

There is no joke as it does not exist.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

There is no joke as it does not exist.

That would mean I can go into a synagogue, take a sacrament from there, take it home, place it where I pray to the spirits (or to some considered witchcraft), and basically do anything I want to it. I could go to the sane synagogue and take the Torah and use the scripture for witchcraft instead.

If I asked a practicing Jew if I can take a sacrament from the synagogue and used it for witchcraft, because there is no such thing as cultural appropriation, does that mean I can take it? Would that be disrespectful or can anyone take anything from a synagogue (Church, Temple, etc), do whatever they want with it religious wise without disrespecting the sacredness of the item stolen? (or are we borrowing it?)

Another form of cultural appropriation is going to Mass, stealing the Eucharist, and consecrating the bread and wine myself. While another form is taking the Gohonzon/Dharma and mixing the Dharma with god-centered religions. Another form is, I don't know, taking a Burka and using it as a fashion statement or use it in my rituals to my family.

If there is no such thing, then doing these things are fine?

 

[LuisDantas]

@Carlita , you are correct in comparing traditions with families.

Both are as meaningful as people decide that they are. And practical concerns limit the range of choices available.

 

[Flankerl]

That would mean I can go into a synagogue, take a sacrament from there, take it home, place it where I pray to the spirits (or to some considered witchcraft), and basically do anything I want to it. I could go to the sane synagogue and take the Torah and use the scripture for witchcraft instead.

You do realise that stealing is a crime under civil law, right?

But yeah you can go to Amazon, buy yourself a Tanakh and then ritually sacrifice your entire family on it. Have fun. Though the police, prosecutor and judge will somehow see that differently.

If I asked a practicing Jew if I can take a sacrament from the synagogue and used it for witchcraft, because there is no such thing as cultural appropriation, does that mean I can take it? Would that be disrespectful or can anyone take anything from a synagogue (Church, Temple, etc), do whatever they want with it religious wise without disrespecting the sacredness of the item stolen? (or are we borrowing it?)

Why the **** do you want to steal stuff? Stealing is bad, even from a non-religious POV.

Stop stealing stuff or plan to steal stuff. Its not okay.


Also what the hell is a sacrament?

Another form of cultural appropriation is going to Mass, stealing the Eucharist, and consecrating the bread and wine myself. While another form is taking the Gohonzon/Dharma and mixing the Dharma with god-centered religions. Another form is, I don't know, taking a Burka and using it as a fashion statement or use it in my rituals to my family.

If there is no such thing, then doing these things are fine?

Again with the stealing.

Do we have to call the police?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Please stop being sarcastic.

It is also against the law to go into a Church and steal the Eucharist (you can't buy it at the store like you can holy water); but, cultural appropriation is using the Eucharist in a religious means not respected by the Church. Just my being female is disrespecting the Eucharist if I attempted to consecrate it on my behalf.

But yeah you can go to Amazon, buy yourself a Tanakh and then ritually sacrifice your entire family on it. Have fun. Though the police, prosecutor and judge will somehow see that differently.

The point is taking it from the Synagogue not buying it from the store. There is a huge difference, am I right morally speaking? (Not talking about legal)

EDIT

If it is right, then I can go into the synagogue and steal all sacred items and regardless of the law, it's morally appropriate to practicing Jews, right?

If it is wrong, that is cultural appropriation. It's simple. Don't disrespect other people's cultures and religious items and claim it as your own. If it doesn't bother you, then so be. It does to a lot of minorities who have preserved their traditions etc for years. I assume very highly Jews are no exception.

Why the **** do you want to steal stuff? Stealing is bad, even from a non-religious POV.

Stop stealing stuff or plan to steal stuff. Its not okay.


Also what the hell is a sacrament?

Talking about religious perspective. Yes, it's bad.

The root word for sacrament is sacred. Something deemed sacred to a specific religion. The Bible to many protestants. The Eucharist to Catholics. Assuming the Ten Commandments to Jews. The pentacle to many neopagans. Specific prayers and dances to my ancestors in my faith. The Dharma to Buddhist. And so on...

Please stop being sarcastic. Do you at least understand what I'm saying?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

HAVE FUN

Please stop being sarcastic.

Is it alright for me to go into a synague during prayer if I was not a practicing Jew, stay inside the Synague and use the Torah for witchcraft prayers, and silently pray using the Torah for means of invoking the spirits because it is my faith to do so?

I have not stolen anything. I have not broken the law. Is it right according to your religion?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I do have a question for all respectful practicing Jew. Do you think Christians are practicing cultural appropriations because they are basing their teachings of Christ on both OT (and NT) teachings even the Jews dont have Jesus in their faith and practice?

 

[GoodbyeDave]

The whole concept of cultural appropriation seems to be a USian thing. The New Age movement is full of people wanting to be or claiming to be "Celts". Do you get real Celts in Britain complaining? No.

Stealing an object is not the same as copying a custom. If some-one can't see that, I'm not really sure I can explain!

 

[Flankerl]

Please stop being sarcastic.

Again: I am not. You are the one with the example of stealing from people. Just admit that your example is stupid and move on.

Is it alright for me to go into a synague during prayer if I was not a practicing Jew, stay inside the Synague and use the Torah for witchcraft prayers, and silently pray using the Torah for means of invoking the spirits because it is my faith to do so?

Is it all right? No one can stop you from doing so,
Mind you they won't include you into the service at all as you are unknown to them.

Yes you can do so. Have fun. No one on this entire planet can stop you from doing so.

I have not stolen anything. I have not broken the law. Is it right according to your religion?

According to my religion your religion is of no concern. It is not mentioned anywhere.

I do have a question for all respectful practicing Jew.

Top lel.

Also its Judaism people, go with the times.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You are being sarcastic. I have spoke with respecting minister (for ignorance of the right word) of the Synague personally and he told me what non jews can and cant do. He did so in relations to his beliefs. If I did anything he told me I cant do, regardless of how I feel about it (IF I wanted to do so) and wanted to incorporate jewish teachings in my faith (AND I have no reason to), Id be practicing cultural appropriation.

I completely find that disrespective not only to my faith but to the jewish faith as well. Im sure most Jews would appreciate that. I dont think you agree with us.

On that note if you havet actively read above.

Yes you can do so. Have fun. No one on this entire planet can stop you from doing so.

I have no reason to do so. I find it direspectful. (Reread)

In JUDAISM is it right to do as I explained in my analagy? (Reread: analogy)

If so, where is it in the Torah I can disrepect your faith?

According to my religion your religion is of no concern. It is not mentioned anywhere.

According to your religion and my example (Not my religion) is it right to do as I described?

Regardless who cares about what, to you is it right?

 

[YmirGF]

Please stop being sarcastic.

Is it alright for me to go into a synague during prayer if I was not a practicing Jew, stay inside the Synague and use the Torah for witchcraft prayers, and silently pray using the Torah for means of invoking the spirits because it is my faith to do so?

I have not stolen anything. I have not broken the law. Is it right according to your religion?

Sorry Carlita, it's a pretty terrible analogy. Cultural appropriation really is an idea that should be buried, hopefully sooner than later.

The biggest problem for so-called "cultural appropriation" is where do you draw the lines and who decides where those lines should be?

 

[buddhist]

Cultural appropriation is like one of you taking a part of my family's tradition that has been held in our generation for centuries and using it as your own without respect to my family at all.

Shall we stop writing and speaking in English, since it belongs to the English peoples?

I think "cultural appropriation" is silliness.

 

[Nietzsche]

Pretty much. If you took the recipe of a religious food and use it in your own way, that would be culture appropriation and if you made profit from it, that's completely disrespectful. However, the article did say it's "fine" to use other cultural things as long as respect is given and maybe at the least the interest in learning what's behind the object, recipe, or dance used.

What.

I'm sorry, what?

No one owns food. It is not "cultural appropriation" if I go out and buy stuff to make Tacos, or heaven forbid, make teriyaki tacos. This is bull****. There is nothing wrong with anyone, anywhere deciding to cook something they haven't before. Instead, I would argue it's wonderful. No matter the reason.

Stop trying to take away the only thing we have that is truly universal. Everyone eats. Everyone enjoys good food. Stop trying to make that into something bad.

There is a quote by my namesake that I think is very appropriate here;

"The Christian resolution to see the world as ugly and bad has made the world ugly & bad."

You may not be a Christian, but you're succeeding on the other front.

 

[lovesong]

Too many quotes here, so I'll go in order.

For example, I have a Yamaya statue (looks like a tourist figurine) in my home. I dont worship it and I dont give it offerings because to do so, it would have to be blood sacrifice. Also, there are specific ways to honor Yemaya as well as the spirit of Yemaya would need to be in the statue and concecrated in ceremony before it means anything at all. To put my personal meaning to it is an insult to that culture. Thats culture appropriation.

No, putting your own meaning to a religious symbol is not disrespect. If it is, tell that to every Christian who's ever worn a triquetra, or to everyone who puts up a Christmas tree, every modern Pagan who makes their own sense of the gods, and every Westerner who likes yoga! If you truly believe that you're able to successfully worship that spirit without all the traditional rites, than you have every right to do that.

Pretty much. If you took the recipe of a religious food and use it in your own way, that would be culture appropriation and if you made profit from it, that's completely disrespectful.

No. No no no no no. Food is made up of ingredients. Meats, veggies, starches, spices, ect. Combining these natural plant and animal parts in your own new, creative way says nothing about culture and is in no way disrespectful. If you like the taste of a corn tortilla with teriyaki chicken who is anyone to tell you that you can't do that. It's food for f**k's sake! It's damned near impossible to make a descent meal without using some food from another culture. Seriously, this is just ridiculous. I will not be learning Jewish history before making my matzoh ball soup.

Edit: Wtf is with the link when I wrote matzoh ball soup. Anyone? I did not do that.
Wait... is it gone now? Who knows.

However, if I took the Yemaya statue, consecrated it, and start worshiping it, then that's appropriation. I am using something sacred of another religion without respect of how the item is used in their culture. That, and they don't use Yemaya figurines as far as I know.

But if you believe something about that figure, regardless of what its inventors think, you have the right to do that. No religion today has never stolen something from someone else. Hell, that makes most Christian things disrespectful then!

Using it in witchcraft rituals (if one is a witch) is another form of cultural appropriation as there is no Bible use in witchcraft (European folk traditions, rituals, and magic) and it is against the Bible.

If someone who practices witchcraft believes that the bible holds some form of power that they can use, then indeed the bible is part of witchcraft, at least that person's. Are you really saying that if you use something in your religious practices that someone else uses differently, than it's some horrible cultural disrespect?

That would mean I can go into a synagogue, take a sacrament from there, take it home, place it where I pray to the spirits (or to some considered witchcraft), and basically do anything I want to it. I could go to the sane synagogue and take the Torah and use the scripture for witchcraft instead.

Ignoring the stealing part, yes. You can. People do these things. It is part of their beliefs. Their sincere belief is that the passages and the consecrated items have some power that they can use. This power could be religious, spiritual, magical, whatever, but it is their belief. What makes their sincere belief disrespectful while the beliefs of the Jewish people are just fine?

If I asked a practicing Jew if I can take a sacrament from the synagogue and used it for witchcraft, because there is no such thing as cultural appropriation, does that mean I can take it? Would that be disrespectful or can anyone take anything from a synagogue (Church, Temple, etc), do whatever they want with it religious wise without disrespecting the sacredness of the item stolen? (or are we borrowing it?)

Two points here. First point: Sacredness means different things to different people. An object that is sacred in one way to a Jew could be sacred in a different way to a Kabalistic Occultist. Is either's view of that item's sacredness better than the other? No. Some things are also sacred to some but not another. The sacraments may be sacred to the Jew but not to the person who takes them to use as decoration. That's perfectly fine too! If we could stop people from using items we find sacred then can I be up in arms every time I see someone making deity fanfics or wearing gemstones?
Second point: No, if you asked the Jews, they'd obviously say no. That doesn't make it not-okay though. If you asked a bunch of Pagans if you could take a bunch of their symbols and repurpose them they'd say no too, but I doubt you're radically anti-triquetra and anti-Christimas tree. This goes for a whole host of things. Devout Hindus probably wouldn't support casual yoga, and Buddhist monks might not be too happy about your little Buddha statue. Does that stop anyone from doing it? Does it make it bad? No, and no.

Another form of cultural appropriation is going to Mass, stealing the Eucharist, and consecrating the bread and wine myself. While another form is taking the Gohonzon/Dharma and mixing the Dharma with god-centered religions.

Mixing religions is disrespectful now, huh? I'm guessing then that this is something you would never, ever do... oh, wait.

Is it alright for me to go into a synague during prayer if I was not a practicing Jew, stay inside the Synague and use the Torah for witchcraft prayers, and silently pray using the Torah for means of invoking the spirits because it is my faith to do so?

Yes. Because it is your faith to do so. Just like Christians can hand out their little papers. You with your beliefs about the Torah have every right to use it as the Jew with their beliefs about the Torah. Why are some people's beliefs more valid than others'?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Thank you for the apology-context understood.

Oops. Hold a sec

 

[Sapiens]

That would mean I can go into a synagogue, take a sacrament from there, take it home, place it where I pray to the spirits (or to some considered witchcraft), and basically do anything I want to it. I could go to the sane synagogue and take the Torah and use the scripture for witchcraft instead.

If I asked a practicing Jew if I can take a sacrament from the synagogue and used it for witchcraft, because there is no such thing as cultural appropriation, does that mean I can take it? Would that be disrespectful or can anyone take anything from a synagogue (Church, Temple, etc), do whatever they want with it religious wise without disrespecting the sacredness of the item stolen? (or are we borrowing it?)

Another form of cultural appropriation is going to Mass, stealing the Eucharist, and consecrating the bread and wine myself. While another form is taking the Gohonzon/Dharma and mixing the Dharma with god-centered religions. Another form is, I don't know, taking a Burka and using it as a fashion statement or use it in my rituals to my family.

If there is no such thing, then doing these things are fine?

Please stop being sarcastic.

Is it alright for me to go into a synague during prayer if I was not a practicing Jew, stay inside the Synague and use the Torah for witchcraft prayers, and silently pray using the Torah for means of invoking the spirits because it is my faith to do so?

I have not stolen anything. I have not broken the law. Is it right according to your religion?

You need to differentiate between hardware and software. The problems are with theft and trespass, not with "cultural appropriation." Let's not confuse them. You are not permitted to appropriate my goods or locations, but ideas and rituals and such are fair game.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

The problems are with theft and trespass, not with "cultural appropriation." Let's not confuse them. You are not permitted to appropriate my goods or locations, but ideas and rituals and such are fair game.

unless, of course, you own the copyright or patent...then the appropriator is fair game...

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Sorry Carlita, it's a pretty terrible analogy. Cultural appropriation really is an idea that should be buried, hopefully sooner than later.

The biggest problem for so-called "cultural appropriation" is where do you draw the lines and who decides where those lines should be?

Thank you for the apology. Context understood.

I agree there the boundry is an issue. I guess another analogy is if you came into my home, took something from my altar, went home and used it in your religious practice. Technically, you didnt do anything wrong. However, unless you (in analogy) didnt have respect of the object on my altar thats been in our family for ages or asked me to borrow it, then Id fine that severely disrespectful. The incorporation of that item into your practice without respect to me, my family, and item is culture appropriation.

When I hear someone say its not needed, then youd have a lot of minority cultures from native american to Deaf culture being oppressed more because people feel its alright to take what doesnt belong to them and their community. Its just, well, terrible to see in person as some people are genuine even though their body language may look like it isnt. Online, we have time to think things out. So, it perplexes me for anyone to say its okay to take something that isnt theirs.

Maybe because Im around an oppressed culture and will work with people who are sadly I dont know.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

What.

I'm sorry, what?

No one owns food. It is not "cultural appropriation" if I go out and buy stuff to make Tacos, or heaven forbid, make teriyaki tacos. This is bull****. There is nothing wrong with anyone, anywhere deciding to cook something they haven't before. Instead, I would argue it's wonderful. No matter the reason.

Stop trying to take away the only thing we have that is truly universal. Everyone eats. Everyone enjoys good food. Stop trying to make that into something bad.

There is a quote by my namesake that I think is very appropriate here;

"The Christian resolution to see the world as ugly and bad has made the world ugly & bad."

You may not be a Christian, but you're succeeding on the other front.

If a community created tacos in their culture -and it is not shared nor made for other people to eat- other than the people within the culture, going in and taking what is not yours is disrespectful.

The Spanish did the same with Natives. Hearing people with Deaf. White people with Black (not being racial.) and so forth. Doesnt matter if its been out for years and its now considered the norm. Thats not my nor the articles point.

It means going to a native american reservation, taking a sacred object of theirs, bringing it to your home, and using it for your worship. How is that right?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I think we'll have to disagree on some things but your argument is well understood and respectful.

No, putting your own meaning to a religious symbol is not disrespect. If it is, tell that to every Christian who's ever worn a triquetra, or to everyone who puts up a Christmas tree, every modern Pagan who makes their own sense of the gods, and every Westerner who likes yoga! If you truly believe that you're able to successfully worship that spirit without all the traditional rites, than you have every right to do that.

Christianity isnt cultural appropriation. The article differientiates it from cultural diffusion where more than one culture 'naturally' mix together like the Santeria example it mentions (recalling what the article says sense Im out the house). Cultural appropriation is if I came into your house (taking out trespassig), took a well meaning item from your altar, and used it in a way opposed to your belief and/or without asking your permission to have it. Maybe that item can be bought in a store. Buying it say the Bible, Torah, Yemaya in the store isnt cultural appropriation. Its specifically talking about takingt sacred things from other communitiess in a more personal setting.

For example, I went to a POW WOW years ago. Native americans sold their own cultural items to tourists. My wearing their items isnt cultural appropriation because They are the ones selling it and gave permission to do so. Now if they were doing their ceremony only held in thier community and I came in, took a sacred object -not for sell- and used it in my worship, that is what I find disrepsectful.

No. No no no no no. Food is made up of ingredients. Meats, veggies, starches, spices, ect. Combining these natural plant and animal parts in your own new, creative way says nothing about culture and is in no way disrespectful. If you like the taste of a corn tortilla with teriyaki chicken who is anyone to tell you that you can't do that. It's food for f**k's sake! It's damned near impossible to make a descent meal without using some food from another culture. Seriously, this is just ridiculous. I will not be learning Jewish history before making my matzoh ball soup.

Not the food itself. If I went to the store and bought a lived chicken, thats not cultural appropriation. If I went to a Lukumi ceremony, snatched the chicken from their hand before they sacraficed it (taking out the rudeness of interupting their ceremony), and used it for my own needs good intentions or not, I find that direspectful. Thats cultural appropriation.

But if you believe something about that figure, regardless of what its inventors think, you have the right to do that. No religion today has never stolen something from someone else. Hell, that makes most Christian things disrespectful then!

The figure means nothing to the culture. If I took Yemaya the cement head that has been concecrated by blood sacrifice and has the spirit of Yemaya in it and offered it ju ju beans because I feel its meaningful to me, thats CA. I find that direspectful.

If someone who practices witchcraft believes that the bible holds some form of power that they can use, then indeed the bible is part of witchcraft, at least that person's. Are you really saying that if you use something in your religious practices that someone else uses differently, than it's some horrible cultural disrespect?

Yes. Without their permission or respect for the item, I find it wrong. Like the example I gave with you coming into my house (or was it someone else) etc. We'll have to disagree. It doesnt sit right with me. Maybe because majority has been taking things from the minority for thousands of years, maybe because I see it in the people I will work with, and in my own culture. Its a western thing.

Ignoring the stealing part, yes. You can. People do these things. It is part of their beliefs. Their sincere belief is that the passages and the consecrated items have some power that they can use. This power could be religious, spiritual, magical, whatever, but it is their belief. What makes their sincere belief disrespectful while the beliefs of the Jewish people are just fine?

I tried to ask a Jew that but she keeps disrespecting my question. I cant answer for jews but I can make an intellegent gues with Muslims. In our school, they used to have a room only for Muslims to pray in. So, I could not go in that room even though my intentions are good. Now they made it to a spiritual room. Now I can go in. I know Muslims dont own the room but the idea of going into their space and using it for my worship is cultural appropriation.

Two points here. First point: Sacredness means different things to different people. An object that is sacred in one way to a Jew could be sacred in a different way to a Kabalistic Occultist. Is either's view of that item's sacredness better than the other? No. Some things are also sacred to some but not another. The sacraments may be sacred to the Jew but not to the person who takes them to use as decoration. That's perfectly fine too! If we could stop people from using items we find

The second paragraph I forgot to quote. Thats cultural appropriation. Not because the items are taken. Because the items are used in a manner disrespectful to that faith and people. Thats why the people you mentioned wouldnt be happy. (Im on my nook so its harder to cut and paste. Have to edit later)

Second point: No, if you asked the Jews, they'd obviously say no. That doesn't make it not-okay though. If you asked a bunch of Pagans if you could take a bunch of their symbols and repurpose them they'd say no too, but I doubt you're radically anti-triquetra and anti-Christimas tree. This goes for a whole host of things. Devout Hindus probably wouldn't support casual yoga, and Buddhist monks might not be too happy about your little Buddha statue. Does that stop anyone from doing it? Does it make it bad? No, and no.

There it is. Above.

Mixing religions is disrespectful now, huh? I'm guessing then that this is something you would never, ever do... oh, wait.

No. That not CA. CA is using items in a manner direspectful that culture and people.

All religions are mixed. The article is talking about individual people, intent, and minority concerns over whats sacred to them.

Yes. Because it is your faith to do so. Just like Christians can hand out their little papers. You with your beliefs about the Torah have every right to use it as the Jew with their beliefs about the Torah. Why are some people's beliefs more valid than others'?

They arent. If I am not a practicing Jew, had no wish to be, and have a faith (which I do) against their religion, no intent to learn but just want to take something -from thier synaguge- not the store and use it in my worship, i find that wrong.

Now to me, I wouldnt usse things in the store either but thats not the point of the article.