• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

'Da Vinci Code'et al....Is the public really that gullible?

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
I was surprised to see the apparent need for the Archbishop of Canterbury's denouncing of the Da Vinci code; do you think we do need 'wetnursing' by our religious leaders ?

I would like to Include the 'Lord of the Rings', 'Harry Potter' and any other recent books denounced by various religious leaders.

This seems to tell me that the Church seems to think us naiive enough to need mollycoddling through the media, to 'save' us from so called diversionary inroads into the 'Darker side' (shakes, shivers, and trembles)

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2137999,00.html
Britain
The TimesApril 17, 2006

CHURCH leaders have opened battle with the account of Christianity that forms the basis of The Da Vinci Code.
Dr Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury, said that conspiracy theories would not undermine the truth of the Gospel. Dr Thomas Wright, the Bishop of Durham, said that an “ethically confused, navel- gazing society” had made Dan Brown’s novel a bestseller.
Hundreds of churches are preparing events to coincide with the release next month of the film version of the novel, to help congregations understand why the version of events that appears in the book is untrue. The Da Vinci Code is based on the premise that Jesus married Mary Magdalene and had a child, leading to a secret bloodline that was suppressed by the Roman Catholic Church and was the Holy Grail of legend.
In his Easter Day sermon at Canterbury Cathedral Dr Williams said that the discovery of the Coptic text of a “Gospel of Judas” and the publication of The Da Vinci Code might appeal to a sense of mystery but did not match the challenges posed by the Resurrection.
It had become customary, he said, to mark Christian festivals with “a little flurry of newspaper articles and television programmes raking over the coals of controversies about the historical basis of faith”. He added that the Church’s position within the Establishment meant that it was mistrusted.
Modern society was fascinated by conspiracies and cover-ups, he said. Biblical texts were treated “as if they were unconvincing press releases from some official source, whose intention is to conceal the real story; and that real story waits for the intrepid investigator to share it with the waiting world.
“Anything that looks like the official version is automatically suspect. Someone is trying to stop you finding out what really happened, because what really happened could upset or challenge the power of officialdom. It evokes Watergate and All the President’s Men.

The truth, Dr Williams said, was more prosaic. “The Bible is not the authorised code of a society managed by priests and preachers for their private purposes but the set of human words through which the call of God is still uniquely immediate to human beings today, human words with divine energy behind them.”
People have become used to asking cynical questions, Dr Williams said. “We have become so suspicious of the power of words . . . the first assumption we make is that we’re faced with spin of some kind. The modern response to the proclamation ‘Christ is Risen!’ is likely to be, ‘Ah, but you would say that, wouldn’t you? Now what’s the real agenda?’ ”
Yet the New Testament “was written by people who by writing what they did made themselves less powerful, not more. They were walking out into an unmapped territory, away from the safe places of political and religious influence . . . it was written by people who were still trying to find a language that would catch up with a reality bigger than they had expected. Whatever this is, it is not about cover-ups, not about the secret agenda of power.”
Dr Williams, an expert on early heresies, said that the “Gospel of Judas” was a late text from a community on the fringes of the early Church.
He said that the world’s praying and suffering Christians were the real testament to the truth of the Resurrection. “If we want to know what it is about today, we need to turn to the people who are taking the same risks, struggling with the same mystery. We need to look at the martyrs and the mystics. There are places where conversion to Christianity is literally a matter of putting your life on the line. We have all been following the story of Abdul Rahman in Afghanistan, and his story is not unique. Whatever the Gospel means in circumstances like that, it isn’t a cover-up for the sake of the powerful.” Dr Wright, an evangelical theologian, says that Brown’s novel “corresponds to what a great many people want to believe and to do, rather than to the hard and bracing challenge of the very Jewish gospel of Jesus.” It “appears to legitimate a free-for-all, do-it-yourself spirituality”. The bishop’s response, Decoding Da Vinci, is to be published by Grove Books weeks before the film is released.
 

Mike182

Flaming Queer
to be honest, i doubt that was aimed at christian followers, but probably more at the general public, and for good reason.

*story time* i was in the pub last week, and talking to the bar lady (a very good friend of mine) and she asked if i had red the davinci code? i told her i had not read it, for a few reasons. 1) no time to, and 2) what does it matter? it will not affect my beliefs.

anyway, she was telling me about the basic theory of the book, and then she said the worst thing ever:

"after i finished reading it, i was literally compelled ot research it some more, so i googled "priory of Zion" and their web site came up..... it must be true"

.... .... .... .... :biglaugh::biglaugh::biglaugh::biglaugh:
 

Halcyon

Lord of the Badgers
Mike182 said:
*story time* i was in the pub last week, and talking to the bar lady (a very good friend of mine) and she asked if i had red the davinci code? i told her i had not read it, for a few reasons. 1) no time to, and 2) what does it matter? it will not affect my beliefs.

anyway, she was telling me about the basic theory of the book, and then she said the worst thing ever:

"after i finished reading it, i was literally compelled ot research it some more, so i googled "priory of Zion" and their web site came up..... it must be true"
Lol :bonk:

To be honest i think they are scared. They are scared that if peoples minds are opened up to different possibilities, different forms of religious thought, they will research these ideas further.
For example, reading Harry Potter may lead to an interest in magic, which may lead to research into real magick, which eventually may lead to conversion to Wicca - all it takes is that initial interest in a topic to get the ball rolling.

From the DaVinci code, i imagine there are a few people brought up Christian but not really thinking about the faith, who after reading the book may lose faith in the orthodox doctrine and could start accepting less orthodox ideas like Jesus being married.
I imagine there may be more than a few psedo-gnostics created from the book as well.
 

NoahideHiker

Religious Headbanger
There are massive amounts of misinformation in the book. I have a good handle on the theology and background of both christianity and Judaism and I found myself wondering what was accurate and what was not. I think when someone outside of your religion spreads misinformation we need to step up and correct them. I think the Christian leadership had a responsibility to denounce the book. They also have the responsability to step up and show what the correct information is.

Having said that I loved The Da Vinci Code as a work of fiction.
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
Greetings!

It's quite possible to take a balanced approach to this book!

To give several specifics, the Baha'i scriptures give Jesus the title "He Who never married," so IOV whether he married Mary Magdalene isn't an issue.

But that said, while this is not formal Baha'i doctrine, I have seen scholarly Baha'i books that both point out that Mary Magdalene may indeed have been a "veiled Apostle" highly respected by both Jesus and others!

And also point out (in a topic separate from this book but otherwise also in the public mind these days due to the recently-discovered Gospel of Judas) that it's entirely possible, even from the context of the Bible itself, that Judas Iscariot was in fact commanded by Jesus to turn Him in to initiate the crucifixion, so that he was in fact following orders when he did this!

There is thus very much a gray area worthy of further examination and evaluation on several of these topics. . . .

Peace,

Bruce
 

bunny1ohio

Active Member
Halcyon said:
To be honest i think they are scared. They are scared that if peoples minds are opened up to different possibilities, different forms of religious thought, they will research these ideas further.

i imagine there are a few people brought up Christian, who after reading the book may lose faith in the orthodox doctrine and could start accepting less orthodox ideas like Jesus being married.

I imagine there may be more than a few psedo-gnostics created from the book as well.

Hiya Hal! I agree... although I don't see why they would be "afraid" of people exploring other religions... other than that they may lose some of their "control" over the minds of their sheep.... errrr.... flock :areyoucra Any religion that cannot bear to be brought to scrutiny and cannot hold up to being compared to another religion... well let's just say that's not a church I would want to join ;)

I don't get it though.... why is it "unorthodox" to think that Christ may have been married? The church has never givena definative answer on the topic one way or another.... it's all been assumptions up to this point... so how could it be orthodox or not? And lastly.... what exactly IS a "pseudo-gnostic"? :D
 

ChrisP

Veteran Member
I'm not sure... someone appears to be paying money through Google ads to do more or less the same too. Look down the bottom of this thread! "The Da Vinci Hoax" ad :eek:

The author has never attempted to pass it off as anywhere approaching the truth (as far as I'm aware). Why anyone would address it as anymore than a work of fiction is beyond me.

Like Halcyon says, religious leaders prefer inertia ;)
 

bunny1ohio

Active Member
BruceDLimber said:
To give several specifics, the Baha'i scriptures give Jesus the title "He Who never married," so IOV whether he married Mary Magdalene isn't an issue for us.

I have seen scholarly Baha'i books that both point out that Mary Magdalene may indeed have been a "veiled Apostle" and deserving of high respect by both Jesus and others!

So there is very much a gray area worthy of further examination and evaluation on several of these topics. . . .

Greetings Bruce! :D

What exactly is Baha'i? I keep seeing it mentioned on the board, but what is the difference between that and regular Christianity?... Just for curiosity's sake lol

So... what does being a "veiled" apostle mean? I don't understand the reference there.

And I love the fact that you seem to be keeping an open mind about what could be possible or not, and the fact that more research into these topics couldn't hurt instead of strictly jumping up and saying "NO that's wrong! :149: It must be this way because my book doesn't tell me that!" :biglaugh:

Nice post... and nice to meetcha Bruce :cool:
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
bunny1ohio said:
Hiya Hal! I agree... although I don't see why they would be "afraid" of people exploring other religions... other than that they may lose some of their "control" over the minds of their sheep.... errrr.... flock :areyoucra Any religion that cannot bear to be brought to scrutiny and cannot hold up to being compared to another religion... well let's just say that's not a church I would want to join ;)

I don't get it though.... why is it "unorthodox" to think that Christ may have been married? The church has never givena definative answer on the topic one way or another.... it's all been assumptions up to this point... so how could it be orthodox or not? And lastly.... what exactly IS a "pseudo-gnostic"? :D

The problem is that "The DaVinci Code" doesn't "scrutinize Christianity" -- it just makes up a fairy-story about it. Nor does the book "compare [Cristianity] to other religions -- it just makes up a fairy-story. The issue isn't that the Church leaders don't want to "lose control over the minds of their sheep" (I think that's a really unfair assumption to make about all Christians). That's not a real issue. The issue here is that the Church leaders want to make sure that a fair and accurate translation of understanding and account of history is given credence over a fictional work of intrigue.

Could Jesus have been married? Certainly! Would that change anything about Christianity? Probably not. but, the fact of Jesus' marriage would have to come to light through some more reliable source than a work of fiction. (I'm sure you're going to argue that the Bible is "fictional." But, you'd be wrong.)

The problem arises when those who don't have a good handle on history and tradition take things too far in describing a faith-system that they don't really understand. Blatant fiction cannot replace the understandings and precepts of a faith-system.
 

bunny1ohio

Active Member
sojourner said:
The problem is that "The DaVinci Code" doesn't "scrutinize Christianity".

The issue here is that the Church leaders want to make sure that a fair and accurate translation of understanding and account of history is given credence over a fictional work of intrigue.

Jesus' marriage would have to come to light through some more reliable source than a work of fiction. (I'm sure you're going to argue that the Bible is "fictional." But, you'd be wrong.)

Blatant fiction cannot replace the understandings and precepts of a faith-system.

Ahhhh.... Sojourner speaks :p .... The point of the thread sojourner, I think anyways, is that everyone KNOWS the book is a work of FICTION.... it is not an attempt to undermine Christian history. People already know it is a work of fiction... so why all the hubbub by the Church to shush up this book when it only draws attention to it?

And although I personally think the Bible is a fairy-story in itself, you're right on that sojourner, I wasn't going to bring that up until you said something, but had to have my 2 cents in there :D My question is why can't a conspiracy theory bring to light something like that? If people dig deep enough due to such an idea and find out it might be right.... who does that hurt? You said yourself it wouldn't have much inpact on the religion.... so why does the credibility of the authorship of the idea come into the picture when we take scripture at face value and you've heard a lot of my objections to that as well... why question one source and not the other I guess is what I'm getting at... but who is it hurting if people dig around a bit and try to answer their own questions on the issue?

Lastly.... who's trying to "replace" Christianity?.... the book is FICTION... everyone KNOWS this.... he's not challenging the Church, or your faith... unless you LET it challenge your faith ;)
 

cardero

Citizen Mod
“Hundreds of churches are preparing events to coincide with the release next month of the film version of the novel, to help congregations understand why the version of events that appears in the book is untrue.”
As I suppose they would. Many religious faiths are taking quite a beating from these new revelations.
“The Da Vinci Code is based on the premise that Jesus married Mary Magdalene and had a child, leading to a secret bloodline that was suppressed by the Roman Catholic Church and was the Holy Grail of legend.
In his Easter Day sermon at Canterbury Cathedral Dr Williams said that the discovery of the Coptic text of a “Gospel of Judas” and the publication of The Da Vinci Code might appeal to a sense of mystery but did not match the challenges posed by the Resurrection.”
Yes, marriages, reproducing children and supported blood lines was an uncommon ritual in the past as it is in this day and age unlike the common everyday occurrence of resurrecting after death and revisiting earthly loved ones through spiritual manifestations in front of many witnesses.
 

bunny1ohio

Active Member
cardero said:
Yes, marriages, reproducing children and supported blood lines was an uncommon ritual in the past as it is in this day and age unlike the common everyday occurrence of resurrecting after death and revisiting earthly loved ones through spiritual manifestations in front of many witnesses.

:biglaugh: I like your style cardero ;)
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
An interesting thing. I've read Harry Potter and Da Vinci Code and various other mythological and fantasy books and not once have I taken them as truth.

In correlation to the Da Vinci code, I had thought way before I had read it that Christ could be married, so this book didn't bother me all that much. I agree there was a lot of false information presented to us in this book, but I took the time to sort out the facts from fiction.

I also agree with the points that have been presented of, if this shakes your faith, you can't blame the book, you haved to look at your own personal life. If a book can shake your faith, you have much more to worry about then a FICTIONAL book.

It's completley fiction with a few scant facts here and there. I did look at things from the Da Vinci code and have come up with my own opinion on it.

The general masses are guilliable Michel, I've seen it one too many times in correlation with the LDS faith. I've been asked whether my father has more then one wife and how I like being in a polygamous family. In other experiences I know people who actually thought missionaries (in the southren US) had horn and that we were just hiding them under our poofy hair. The people are guilliable and willing to believe just about anything that is thrown at them without taking a second thought about it or forming their own opinion on the subject.

For me, most of the time, I think about it, research it, and come up with my own opinion on it. Whether that opinion be like other people's or not, it varies.

Personally I thought Dan Brown's books were well written and GREAT fiction that made you think about a couple of things and made you want to learn more and research (in my opinion).

Unfortunatley, with the Da Vinci Code movie coming out, the ignorant and guilliable masses will take it as truth again and again, and so far, the actors in the movie aren't doing anything to dispel the myth that it is fact.

Anywho, that's just my long opinon on it.
 

Mister_T

Forum Relic
Premium Member
I also agree with the points that have been presented of, if this shakes your faith, you can't blame the book, you haved to look at your own personal life. If a book can shake your faith, you have much more to worry about then a FICTIONAL book.
Booya!:highfive:
 

Halcyon

Lord of the Badgers
bunny1ohio said:
Hiya Hal! I agree... although I don't see why they would be "afraid" of people exploring other religions... other than that they may lose some of their "control" over the minds of their sheep.... errrr.... flock :areyoucra Any religion that cannot bear to be brought to scrutiny and cannot hold up to being compared to another religion... well let's just say that's not a church I would want to join ;)
Exactly.
bunny1ohio said:
I don't get it though.... why is it "unorthodox" to think that Christ may have been married? The church has never givena definative answer on the topic one way or another.... it's all been assumptions up to this point... so how could it be orthodox or not?
I agree, but if you look around this site you'll see many orthodox Christians kicking up a fuss at the bare mention of the idea.
bunny1ohio said:
And lastly.... what exactly IS a "pseudo-gnostic"? :D
Like a pseudo-wiccan, those teenagers who run around putting hex's on people and calling themselves witches without any real idea what they're talking about.
I imagine (although i've never met any) that there are Christians running around calling themselves Gnostic because they've read the DaVinci code then done a little bit of research into the Gospels of Mary and Philip, but have no real idea what gnosticism actually is.
 

ChrisP

Veteran Member
Halcyon said:
Like a pseudo-wiccan, those teenagers who run around putting hex's on people and calling themselves witches without any real idea what they're talking about.
Aaaah buffy, where would Emo teenage girls be without you?
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
beckysoup61 said:
An interesting thing. I've read Harry Potter and Da Vinci Code and various other mythological and fantasy books and not once have I taken them as truth.

In correlation to the Da Vinci code, I had thought way before I had read it that Christ could be married, so this book didn't bother me all that much. I agree there was a lot of false information presented to us in this book, but I took the time to sort out the facts from fiction.

I also agree with the points that have been presented of, if this shakes your faith, you can't blame the book, you haved to look at your own personal life. If a book can shake your faith, you have much more to worry about then a FICTIONAL book.

It's completley fiction with a few scant facts here and there. I did look at things from the Da Vinci code and have come up with my own opinion on it.

The general masses are guilliable Michel, I've seen it one too many times in correlation with the LDS faith. I've been asked whether my father has more then one wife and how I like being in a polygamous family. In other experiences I know people who actually thought missionaries (in the southren US) had horn and that we were just hiding them under our poofy hair. The people are guilliable and willing to believe just about anything that is thrown at them without taking a second thought about it or forming their own opinion on the subject.

For me, most of the time, I think about it, research it, and come up with my own opinion on it. Whether that opinion be like other people's or not, it varies.

Personally I thought Dan Brown's books were well written and GREAT fiction that made you think about a couple of things and made you want to learn more and research (in my opinion).

Unfortunatley, with the Da Vinci Code movie coming out, the ignorant and guilliable masses will take it as truth again and again, and so far, the actors in the movie aren't doing anything to dispel the myth that it is fact.

Anywho, that's just my long opinon on it.

I suppose some are that gullible; I agree that they all make good fiction. I am sorry about
I've been asked whether my father has more then one wife and how I like being in a polygamous family.
I guess there are gulliblke people about.

Actually, I have just remembered the occasion of an English Soap (pre TV this was steam radio) in which a character died.

The BBC were inundated with wreaths, and messages of consolation.:D
 

bunny1ohio

Active Member
Halcyon said:
Like a pseudo-wiccan, those teenagers who run around putting hex's on people and calling themselves witches without any real idea what they're talking about. I imagine (although i've never met any) that there are Christians running around calling themselves Gnostic because they've read the DaVinci code then done a little bit of research into the Gospels of Mary and Philip, but have no real idea what gnosticism actually is.

Ahhh... okey dokey then.... that makes things about clear as mud :biglaugh: No seriously though I get what you mean.... so exactly what is a Gnostic then? A different kind of Christian or is it another religion entirely? I've never really heard anybody define Gnosticism before. LOL
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
I think some church leaders feel the need to speak up solely for the sake of propriety. If the book had not been such a blockbuster hit, I doubt they would feel the necessity.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
bunny1ohio said:
Ahhhh.... Sojourner speaks :p .... The point of the thread sojourner, I think anyways, is that everyone KNOWS the book is a work of FICTION.... it is not an attempt to undermine Christian history. People already know it is a work of fiction... so why all the hubbub by the Church to shush up this book when it only draws attention to it?

And although I personally think the Bible is a fairy-story in itself, you're right on that sojourner, I wasn't going to bring that up until you said something, but had to have my 2 cents in there :D My question is why can't a conspiracy theory bring to light something like that? If people dig deep enough due to such an idea and find out it might be right.... who does that hurt? You said yourself it wouldn't have much inpact on the religion.... so why does the credibility of the authorship of the idea come into the picture when we take scripture at face value and you've heard a lot of my objections to that as well... why question one source and not the other I guess is what I'm getting at... but who is it hurting if people dig around a bit and try to answer their own questions on the issue?

Lastly.... who's trying to "replace" Christianity?.... the book is FICTION... everyone KNOWS this.... he's not challenging the Church, or your faith... unless you LET it challenge your faith ;)
My point is, that I'm not so sure that everyone knows it's fiction.There are, in fact, Christians I've talked to, who debate its factuality. I'm sure there are many more, not familiar with Biblical source texts, biblical criticism, and the history of the Church, who are now making assumptions about Christianity, based upon a "factual" reading of this book. I'm sure there are many who, believing the book to be factual -- or even a credible source of historical accuracy, are using the credibility of this story to refute the truthfulness of traditional Christianity.

The concern here is that people may be misled by a false assumption, based upon a false credibility given to a fictional story. It's not the story that is being shushed, as you say, so much as the factual credibility of the story.

Why can't "a conspiracy theory bring to light something like that?" Because it's not a conspiracy theory, it's conspiracy fiction. One can't base a theory, or make claims based upon obvious fiction. No, it wouldn't have that much of an effect on the religion, but it might have a wide impact on the credibility of the religion, and on the Biblical sources of the religion. That's where the harm would lie.

We do question the sources -- that's why there's controversy surrounding the Judas text -- there's question as to its veracity. In truth, there is still ongoing questioning of canonical texts, too. Truth and faith are strengthened by questioning. But if the fictional nature of a text is known, then it's incumbent upon us to call a spade a spade, in order to avoid confusion. That's why The DaVinci Code is being refuted. It does not bear any weight in truth, and adds nothing to the search for the truth. It's a useless "tool."
 
Top