Daniel 8 prophecies fulfilled!!!!!!!!!!!!!??

[InvestigateTruth]

Daniel 8 vision prophesied a time when a Greece king will rise, that would attack Persian Kingdom and conquers them. Then after this Greece King's Fall, his kingdom will be divided into Four kingdoms.

Read entire prophecy here:

Daniel 8 NIV


Now see how it was fulfilled:

The Greece King was Alexander the Great. He conquered Persian empire while at that time Persian were powerful, then eventually He died in Age 31 when he was at his max power. After that his kingdom became divided into Four: the Ptolemaic Kingdom of Egypt, the Seleucid Empire in the east, the Kingdom of Pergamon in Asia Minor, and Macedon.

Read entire history here:

Alexander the Great - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




Daniel Prophesied these events a few hundreds years before such things happened, and in fact at that time, Persian Empire was very powerful.

P.S. please read the Prophecy and the history link to do a proper and knowledgeable debate.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

I think it is pretty much established that Daniel was written after the facts.

 

[technomage]

Daniel 8 vision prophesied a time when a Greece king will rise, that would attack Persian Kingdom and conquers them. Then after this Greece King's Fall, his kingdom will be divided into Four kingdoms.

Daniel 8 was written during the reign of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, along with the rest of the last half of Daniel. This is not a "prophecy"--the Latin term is vaticinia ex eventu. Additionally, the language (both the Hebrew and the Aramaic) is far too late to have been the language used during the Captivity.

Book of Daniel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Daniel

 

[Wandered Off]

Shoddy work here... You have committed the logical fallacy paucis exclamation signum. Everyone knows it takes at least 18 exclamation marks to make even a marginally effective case, and you could barely be bothered to use 13. Obviously, I am forced to remain unconvinced.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Daniel 8 was written during the reign of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, along with the rest of the last half of Daniel. This is not a "prophecy"--the Latin term is vaticinia ex eventu. Additionally, the language (both the Hebrew and the Aramaic) is far too late to have been the language used during the Captivity.

Book of Daniel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Daniel

Well, there is evidence that The prophet Ezekiel and Daniel were contemporary.
Daniel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and the Book of Ezekiel written between 593 to 571 BC.
Book of Ezekiel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Traditionally Book of Daniel ascribed to Daniel himself but modern scholarly consensus 'considers' the book pseudonymous.

Now, this site claims that Book of Daniel was among dead sea scroll, and says "Most importantly, the existence of Daniel in the DSS disproves the skeptical position that Daniel was originally written in the 2nd century BC."

New Light on the Book of Daniel from the Dead Sea Scrolls

"Several manuscripts of Daniel were found at Qumran and 4QDanc is of particular interest. Just about everyone agrees it dates to the second century BC. If that is true (and it is in all probability), then that piece of information actually supports the concept that Daniel was written in the sixth century, or at least some amount of time before the second century. Whence cometh this conclusion? A document originally composed in the second century would not have been accepted by the Qumran community in such a short amount of time. Harrison writes that “there would … have been insufficient time for Maccabean compositions to be circulated, venerated, and accepted as canonical Scripture by a Maccabean sect.”
The Date and Authorship of the Book of Daniel


Also

3) The Persian words which are cited in Daniel are specifically old Persian words dating from around 300 B.C. This argues against a 165 date
https://bible.org/article/introduction-book-daniel

 

[technomage]

Well, there is evidence that The prophet Ezekiel and Daniel were contemporary.
Daniel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Considering ALL the evidence, it becomes obvious that the Book of Daniel is pseudepigraphic.

Now, this site claims that Book of Daniel was among dead sea scroll, and says "Most importantly, the existence of Daniel in the DSS disproves the skeptical position that Daniel was originally written in the 2nd century BC."

New Light on the Book of Daniel from the Dead Sea Scrolls

The early semicursive script of 4QDanc is to be dated in "the late second century" B.C., "no more than about a half century younger than the autograph.
​

Cite. Ulrich is quoting Cross's definitive work The Ancient Library of Qumran, 2nd ed. 1961. No evidence has ever been presented that has contradicted the early 2nd century date for the book of Daniel. If your source actually has _evidence_ to support his contention, he should immediately submit it to any relevant peer-reviewed publication: I will guarantee that if his evidence passes peer-review, he will instantly make a name for himself in biblical scholarship.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I think it is pretty much established that Daniel was written after the facts.

Not really. It is not established, but it is suggested Daniel was written after, however there are evidences that may suggest otherwise. I have put some of them above, but here is another one:

It is recorded in Ezekiel 28:3-

"Are you wiser than Daniel? Is no secret hidden from you?"

Therefore a Man by the name Daniel lived around the time of Ezekiel and He was known as someone wise who knows secrets of things. and the Book of Ezekiel dates back to 593 - 571 BC.

Now we find similar attributes related to Daniel in his own Book:

"Then the king placed Daniel in a high position and lavished many gifts on him. He made him ruler over the entire province of Babylon and placed him in charge of all its wise men." Daniel 2:48

That suggests Ezekiel was aware of the stories of the Book of Daniel.

 

[technomage]

It is not established, but it is suggested Daniel was written after, however there are evidences that may suggest otherwise.

Excuse me, but what you have posted is a series of _assertions_, most or all of which are unsupported, and the totality of which does not over-ride the majority scholarly position.

All of the arguments your sources provide have been considered, some literally for centuries, and have been rejected as insufficient to establish the case.

That suggests Ezekiel was aware of the stories of the Book of Daniel.

IT, this goes beyond "unsupported arguments" to outright "wishful thinking." Again, the overwhelming evidence is that the book of Daniel was pseudepigraphic.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Considering ALL the evidence, it becomes obvious that the Book of Daniel is pseudepigraphic.

As per Wikipedia:

" Its exclusion from the Prophets (Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and the Twelve) was probably because it appeared after the canon for those books had closed, and the dominant view among scholars is that Daniel is not in any case a prophetic book but an apocalypse."

But to be fair, just because it was excluded is not a proof that it was not written then. It could have been written, but for an unknown reason it has been excluded. We should not be biased toward another view.
Yes, it is possible that it was written later by another person, but it cannot be proved that it was not written by Daniel or did not originate from Daniel. Hence I used the word 'suggested', rather than 'proved' in my posts.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Not really. It is not established, but it is suggested Daniel was written after, however there are evidences that may suggest otherwise. I have put some of them above, but here is another one:

It is recorded in Ezekiel 28:3-

"Are you wiser than Daniel? Is no secret hidden from you?"

Therefore a Man by the name Daniel lived around the time of Ezekiel and He was known as someone wise who knows secrets of things. and the Book of Ezekiel dates back to 593 - 571 BC.

Now we find similar attributes related to Daniel in his own Book:

"Then the king placed Daniel in a high position and lavished many gifts on him. He made him ruler over the entire province of Babylon and placed him in charge of all its wise men." Daniel 2:48

That suggests Ezekiel was aware of the stories of the Book of Daniel.

Daniel was a Hebrew folk hero who would often defeat his enemies by trickery like the Coyote in many Native American myths. The authors of Daniel sought to legitimize their works by attributing it to this folk hero.

The Catholic version of Daniel in fact includes a few of these folk stories that are not including in most versions of Daniel.

I am sorry but this issue is not going to be that black and white, it as been studied extensively and there are multiple issues regarding Daniel.

 

[technomage]

As per Wikipedia:

" Its exclusion from the Prophets (Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and the Twelve) was probably because it appeared after the canon for those books had closed, and the dominant view among scholars is that Daniel is not in any case a prophetic book but an apocalypse."

But to be fair, just because it was excluded is not a proof that it was not written then. It could have been written, but for an unknown reason it has been excluded. We should not be biased toward another view.
Yes, it is possible that it was written later by another person, but it cannot be proved that it was not written by Daniel or did not originate from Daniel. Hence I used the word 'suggested', rather than 'proved' in my posts.

The level of proof you are asking for is not only impossible, but unreasonable.

This is the same situation one faces when looking at the works of Nostradamus, or the Gospel of Mark's "prediction" of the destruction of Jerusalem (written within a few years after the event), or the claims of various psychics such as Tamara Rand. Unlike Rand, however, the purpose of the pseudepigraphic author of the book of Daniel was not fraud: the author was trying to encourage the people of Israel, who had just thrown off the yolk of Antiochus and the Seleucids. He was trying to tell people "Hey, God is with us, and everything is going to be all right."

That's the most important thing to remember about Daniel, IT. It's not a prophecy. It's an encouragement to remember God.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The level of proof you are asking for is not only impossible, but unreasonable.

Why unreasonable? Proof is only proof when it is 'beyond reasonable doubt'. Otherwise it is not proof. It is opinion which might be supported by some evidence suggesting so and so.

.....the author was trying to encourage the people of Israel, who had just thrown off the yolk of Antiochus and the Seleucids. He was trying to tell people "Hey, God is with us, and everything is going to be all right."

That's the most important thing to remember about Daniel, IT. It's not a prophecy. It's an encouragement to remember God.

And this is just your view..... That is not what the Author claims. The author claims, He is seeing 'visions' related to 'end time prophecy':

"As he came near the place where I was standing, I was terrified and fell prostrate. "Son of man," he said to me, "understand that the vision concerns the time of the end." Daniel 8:17

 

[technomage]

Why unreasonable? Proof is only proof when it is 'beyond reasonable doubt'. Otherwise it is not proof. It is opinion which might be supported by some evidence suggesting so and so.

You take a fideist view of the authorship of the book. That's your choice ... but others do not share it.

I will note that such an interpretation brings anything you say about Baha'i into question. And I will follow the evidence.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You take a fideist view of the authorship of the book. That's your choice ... but others do not share it.

I will note that such an interpretation brings anything you say about Baha'i into question. And I will follow the evidence.

Here is another evidence.

The signs that must come to pass before the 'end time' in Daniel is similar to those Jesus gave:

"they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"....Jesus answered:...Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom." Matthew 24:2-7

In Daniel 8 similarly we can see He describes "kingdom against kingdom" as sign that must pass before the End of Age.

 

[technomage]

Here is another evidence.

That is not "evidence," IT: again, you're dealing with post-diction.

If you're going to take a fideist view of a sacred text, go ahead and be fideist. Fideism does not require evidence. But if you're going to look at the evidence, it is against your position.

There's nothing wrong with a fideist position. Just be aware that most people who do not share your belief will not find it at all persuasive. In my case, in particular, any contradictory evidence is sufficient to end the discussion.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

That is not "evidence," IT: again, you're dealing with post-diction.

If you're going to take a fideist view of a sacred text, go ahead and be fideist. Fideism does not require evidence. But if you're going to look at the evidence, it is against your position.

There's nothing wrong with a fideist position. Just be aware that most people who do not share your belief will not find it at all persuasive. In my case, in particular, any contradictory evidence is sufficient to end the discussion.

Here is evidence supported by facts:

"In my vision I saw myself in the citadel of Susa in the province of Elam; in the vision I was beside the Ulai Canal." Daniel 8:2

Therefore Daniel had a vision that prophecied an event happening in the province of Elam. That is Persia currently known as Iran.

But what was the vision about? continue reading until:

"As he came near the place where I was standing, I was terrified and fell prostrate. "Son of man," he said to me, "understand that the vision concerns the time of the end." Daniel 8:17

Therefore the vision sets the place to be in Persia.

Now as regards to the year, it can also be calculated from His vision:

"He said to me, "It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated." Daniel 8:14

Now in Bible each prophetic day is one year (see Num. 14:34.) Therefore 2300 days is 2300 years. But when is the start of the 2300 years period?

It is the date of the issuing of the edict of Artaxerxes to rebuild Jerusalem which was 456 years before the birth of Christ.
Therefore counting 2300 years from year 456 BC, by subtracting 2300 from 456, you get the year 1844.

Now we can look at history and see, what happened in year 1844 in Persia in the province of Elam beside the Ulai Canal. In year 1844, the Bab proclaimed to be the Promised One.
The Báb (1819-1850)

The Bab actually manifested in the same place as Daniel had seen, in the province of Elam beside the Ulai Canal. Which in our current time is known as city of Shiraz. The place can be seen below:

Now, interestingly, William Miller, a Baptist preacher, Based on his interpretations of the prophecies in the book of Daniel, proposed that Jesus Christ would return to the earth during the year 1844. But they were waiting in Israel. Wrong place!!

Great Disappointment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[technomage]

Here is evidence supported by facts:

It's the re-application of a supposed prophecy to an unintended topic. Happens to the stuff Nostradamus wrote all the time.