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Daoism

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
I have read the Tao te Ching and the Hua Hu Ching, and I was wondering if a Daoist could tell me, what exactly is Lao Tzu speaking of when he says the integral universal way? Is he speaking of going through life doing good to others, or is there more to it then that?
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I'm not a scholar, but as I understand Lao-Tzu, he is speaking of going through life in accordance with the Tao -- which is quite different from going through life trying to be good to people.
 

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
Yes, but most of what he teaches seems to be about ethics and living your everyday life. So is there a difference?
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Yes, but most of what he teaches seems to be about ethics and living your everyday life. So is there a difference?

Yes, I think there is a difference. I think for Lao Tzu, ethics is an inferior guide to living well. Better to go with the Tao, than to go with principles of right and wrong.
 

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
So what is the difference between the Dao and right ethics, when Lao Tzu taught about right ethics almost constantly?
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
So what is the difference between the Dao and right ethics, when Lao Tzu taught about right ethics almost constantly?

To behave ethically, is to behave according to a set of moral rules or principles. Doing so has mixed results. Principles, by their very nature, are sometimes right and sometimes wrong. I don't mean that some of the principles are right and some of the principles are wrong. I mean that the same principle is sometimes right and sometimes wrong. This can be seen by anyone.

Following the Dao, however, is not following a set of principles. Instead, it is like following the current in a stream. It is like knowing whether to push or pull on the doors of this world. Instead of ethics -- instead of good or bad -- think "Well being". The Taoist is concerned, not with right or wrong, but with well being.

Again, these are just my ideas about what Lao-Tzu is saying. I'm no scholar.
 

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
So Daoism is about doing what is best in the current situation? Like at times it might be best to do something besides good depending on the situation? I remember Lao Tzu said there are times a person must kill, but they should not be proud of it or celebrate over it.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
So Daoism is about doing what is best in the current situation?

That's a very apt way of describing it, I think. As concerned with doing what's best, rather than with doing what's good or bad.

Of course to do what's best in the current situation requires one to have remarkable awareness of what's going on, doesn't it?
 

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
Well yes, it does. It's a lot like Buddhism actually. A Buddhist is always very mindful of their surroundings, and should always do what's best for everyone involved.
 
So Daoism is about doing what is best in the current situation? Like at times it might be best to do something besides good depending on the situation? I remember Lao Tzu said there are times a person must kill, but they should not be proud of it or celebrate over it.

I'm not an expert on the Tao, but some of my elders are Chan Buddhist monks who know a lot about the Tao.

Tao just means "Way" as in the Way of Things. The Tao of a river is to flow down stream. The Tao of rain is to fall. The Tao of time is to pass us by. The Tao of plants is to grow toward the sun. The Tao of a mother is to be motherly with her baby. The Tao isn't the right Way. The Tao isn't the wrong Way. The Tao isn't the best Way. The Tao isn't the worst Way. The Tao is just the Way of Thing... the Way things are when you go hiking up a mountain and you see everything in Nature has a place and has it's own Way.

When we go against the Tao - the natural Way of Things - there is a struggle. When we try to swim upstream there is experienced a struggle. When we turn a plant sideways it struggles to grow back up right. When such struggle is fruitless and causes unpleasantness to arise it is not Tao. For some struggle in Life such as exercising is good in that it bares good results.

What is the Tao of being Human? If we do not know, then perhaps we are struggling and going the wrong way?
 

Flow

NONE
I have read the Tao te Ching and the Hua Hu Ching, and I was wondering if a Daoist could tell me, what exactly is Lao Tzu speaking of when he says the integral universal way? Is he speaking of going through life doing good to others, or is there more to it then that?

The Integral Universal Way is the Tao istelf. It is the Flow of the Whole Universe. Now yes, the tree has a way, the bush does and so does the cloud, but thats all illusionary. In the mind it appears that there are many ways, but there is only one way, and that way is Tao. So, the universal integreal way is the way of the universe, the whole itself. When the mind tries to look for a way, it see's many, but when the mind is calmed, there is only one. This all means that all other ways are false, they only appear to the mind. When mind is calmed, there is only one way.

Now, Is he talking about going threw life doing good to others, not like we think. Lao Tzu was simply an anarchist to the world. He is saying, drop all your laws, all your morals, for the one law, Tao. We are the real Anarchist because we are going against and not following the one true law. Chuang Tzu, who was a famous Taoist, was a Anarchist too! In the Mind Taoism appears to be complementary duality. This means that with good comes bad and there is no bad without good and vice versa. But, this is only in the mind. In reality there is no Good or Bad, Right or Wrong, etc. There is only the one real law, Tao. Because of our restless minds we have fallen away from seeing Tao, the one law. From this happening, we have created our own laws, our own societies, and things like this. The Ego or Mind has spawned Society and that is the largest revolt against Tao. Chuang Tzu used to say that Tao doesnt see the world in good or bad, or anything like that, it sees and balances the universe as it is. When I meditate and go into the thoughless state there is no good or bad and Tao doesnt follow good or bad, because they dont exist. The mind wants to catagorize things, but them into stages, and label them. But, Tao doesnt do this, so why should we? The Moralist will say, "So that means we can all go kill and steal and because there is no good or bad." No, only mind will allow this to arise. To keep the mind in place it creates for itself duality. When the walls fall down, the mind panics! Its says so i can kill, steal, rape, etc and its not bad?!?!?! No, that is not what Lao and Chuang Tzu were saying. What they were saying is that with morality comes immorality, with ethical comes unethical. So they say drop one and the other will dissapear. when one truly drops good, there will be no thought of doing bad. When one drops right, there will be no thought of doing wrong! All there will be is the real flow, the real way, the one law, Tao. So to do good, to Lao and Chuang Tzu, is to follow Tao and to let every action come from non-action, and to just lets all arise spontaneously. Thats it!
 
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joea

Oshoyoi
Tao represents a profound insight into nature. Tao is the ultimate principle that brings the whole of existence together. It is formless, yet it produces and nudges heaven and earth ( Ko Hsuan's classic of purity ). The integral universal way doesn't mean going through life doing good to others and loving everyone. Laws and morals are man made...your inner most being already has the intrinsic quality.
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend Yosef,

Taoism is not about *ethics* but about understanding and living harmoniously rather to be one with *nature*.

Understand this 2nd stanza from *Tao Te Ching*

When people see some things as beautiful,
other things become ugly.
When people see some things as good,
other things become bad.

Being and non-being create each other.
Difficult and easy support each other.
Long and short define each other.
High and low depend on each other.
Before and after follow each other.

Therefore the Master
acts without doing anything
and teaches without saying anything.
Things arise and she lets them come;
things disappear and she lets them go.
She has but doesn't possess,
acts but doesn't expect.
When her work is done, she forgets it.
That is why it lasts forever.

Love & rgds
 
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