• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Bathos Logos

Active Member
Sadly, our culture has so insanely commodified everything for sale and profit that we no longer can recognize the difference between art and entertainment. The value of everything, now, depends on what it can be sold for. And only art that entertains, sells. While art that changes the way we see and understand the world just confuses and often frustrates us. And so gets left aside as a pointless and often annoying curiosity. When in fact art is humanity's greatest achievement. As it gives living value and purpose beyond itself.
And I would guess that you don't think of something like the lightbulb (for example) as a work of "art". And so, I would again state that what you are willing to term "art" is simply not as useful toward supporting us as living beings who must overcome the challenges of our environment to survive. You must know and understand that "art" as you term it was only ever a venture of very secondary (or tertiary, or even further removed from primary) importance. Survival takes precedence. And it was only the advent of a lot of the material, time-saving innovations that paved the way for humans to even be able to focus more heavily on "art". Again - survival is always paramount - even for the artist, who, when dying of thirst, will most certainly go seek water before he paints another painting. And so, those implements that help us to survive are simply more important. And both "art" (again, as you seem to be defining it) and entertainment are very closely related on such a scale of importance. "Art" may be more important, sure - but they are both a far cry from what is most important.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I have a serious question:

Why are US tax dollars being spent on this?! Let private sector handle this! :mad:
I do appreciate Anton's take on it:
I remember when the Navy released videos of three UFO's. They were all explained in rather short order by those that understood the technology involved. They were shown to be explainable by just ordinary events and no money was needed from taxpayers.

By the way, why is the person in your video interested in finding "Allens"? Most Al's tend to be rather boring, though I was a huge fan of Al Bundy.
 

Mark Charles Compton

Pineal Peruser
I remember when the Navy released videos of three UFO's. They were all explained in rather short order by those that understood the technology involved. They were shown to be explainable by just ordinary events and no money was needed from taxpayers.

By the way, why is the person in your video interested in finding "Allens"? Most Al's tend to be rather boring, though I was a huge fan of Al Bundy.
Anton Petrov is not NASA, he's a retired Mathematics teacher turned YouTube educator. NASA is the party spending my $$ to find supposed... "Allens"?. (I don't understand why aliens was changed to Allens and placed in quotations. Apologies if the joke was lost on me, consider that I may have the intellect of a shoe-salesman, and take pity :).

Play the video starting at timestamp 16min. 40sec... Listen for 10 seconds until timestamp 16min. 50sec. and you will have the cincher as to why I believe NASA is wasting time and money on this.

The "TLDW" (Too Long Didn't Watch) text summarization... Anton explains the following...
#1: human memory is faulty, human perception can be tricked or altered by the 'auto-correct' system of the brain, people believe what they want regardless of what they know.
#2: There has already been the SETI program, they're doing their job just fine, it's like a needle in a haystack, if the needle can even be found or exists at all in our section of the haystack.
#3: Project Bluebook already combed through these cases and highlighted the more mysterious events.
#4: Its more likely man-made from earthborn materials than the alternative.
#5: This is gratefully not a full-scale investigation, and hopefully after it concludes in one year, they cut the program.
#6: Could this just be NASA running out of funding and desperately flailing to get a program green flagged so that the $$ spicket will turn back on.

I would suggest checking Anton's channel out. Anyone who considers themselves science-minded, but disagrees with his method and evaluation (which is an open-minded skepticism based in materialism)... Well, I might suggest that individual may not understand how 'science' works or what 'science' is to/for our species...
Put it this way, you won't find any 'woo' on his channel unless he's attempting to debunk it, but this particular video is one of such rare cases and the reason he chose to cover this issue is because the NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION of the USA is the organization in question... you know, those folks that landed on the Moon?
 

Mark Charles Compton

Pineal Peruser
Should actually be a "Millions actually care whether or not I care, and talk to me about it quite frequently, and so I am forced to care" bin. How about that?
Seems a bit narcissistic, if I'm to be honest. A little confusing whether you "don't care" or are "forced to care"... Seems like a paradoxical dilemma, you've got yourself sandwiched into. Hardened callousness of indifference on one side, and stone-cold psychological manipulation on the other... sounds rough.

Would you rather be ignored by all these 'millions', seas of people, whom all regard your opinion so highly? Honestly, I'd probably steer away from social media if I were as famous and sought after as yourself. Be careful, stay safe, pay attention to your mental stability always. I personally feel like I may be one of the rare ones (here's to hoping I'm wrong) that actually DOES care about what you think, and what your debate partners think, and what their debate partners think. I don't think anyone should shut down or disparage anyone else's ideas, hence the reason of my response to your "who cares" post.

The falsehood of someone's statement or a simple disagreement with it, can be presented in a more tactful and digestible format, which would potentially increase the likelihood of it being absorbed and retained by your audience. "Who cares." is vague and not very representative of anything mankind has observed... Someone tends to care, these 'someones' tend to be a surprisingly large sample of the population, some of these 'someones' become overwhelmed by a surge of zealotry and are compelled to evangelize their newly realized 'epiphany' to the whole world.
 

Bathos Logos

Active Member
Seems a bit narcissistic, if I'm to be honest.
Your opinion is noted.

A little confusing whether you "don't care" or are "forced to care"... Seems like a paradoxical dilemma, you've got yourself sandwiched into. Hardened callousness of indifference on one side, and stone-cold psychological manipulation on the other... sounds rough.
It's actually very simple. I don't care about it for my own purposes - it doesn't matter in the slightest and, again, there are zero (as in nonexistent, cannot be measured, demonstrated or correlated) effects that can be witnessed in my life for any claim of the religious variety. And I would assume that the effects of dark matter on what I experience day-to-day are negligible, or, if they aren't, I am still entirely capable of living my life (as billions have done throughout the ages) without knowing a lick about them.

However, in my life, I still have people like you come along, who insist on things like my arrogance for denying the goofy ideas they bring from the depths of their imaginations. Or, rather, that they are parroting from the stories told from imaginings of their forebears. And so, I then feel obliged to formulate some kind of response or reply. I mean... you literally EXPECT one, don't you? When you say things like how narcissistic I am or that I am psychologically manipulating some person or another? And the really ironic part is that, if you notice a few sentences back, I basically lay out the situation as people like you, with your pushy opinions and expectations that your words should mean just "oh so much" to people like me, also being manipulative in the process. I can actually admit that, yes, I am trying to get people to see things from a different perspective. One in which they aren't right all the time. I don't claim to be right all the time - and if you notice, I don't have a replacement agenda to push. It's not like I am asking you to choose my theory of God or "dark matter" over some other theory. I have no theory, and only claim that one needn't have one in the first place - until such time as a theory is warranted because you've actually encountered the thing.


Would you rather be ignored by all these 'millions', seas of people, whom all regard your opinion so highly?
What are you talking about? Who regards my opinion "so highly"? Who? You think I expect anyone to? Sure, I put my two cents in. And? Is that me, expecting that everyone find my opinion to be amazing, do you think? Is that what you are expecting every time you type some inane blather? Here again - I can admit that my opinion doesn't need matter to anyone outside myself. Can you?

Honestly, I'd probably steer away from social media if I were as famous and sought after as yourself. Be careful, stay safe, pay attention to your mental stability always. I personally feel like I may be one of the rare ones (here's to hoping I'm wrong) that actually DOES care about what you think, and what your debate partners think, and what their debate partners think. I don't think anyone should shut down or disparage anyone else's ideas, hence the reason of my response to your "who cares" post.
I see... you're being facetious. Once again - trying to manipulate me... even as you accused me (or, rather, convicted me) of doing the same. I admit that I am trying to manipulate. But you seem to think yourself as "one of the rare ones". Do you see the problem here? If there is anyone in need of some self-reflection between the two of us, I am afraid it is demonstrably you.

The falsehood of someone's statement or a simple disagreement with it, can be presented in a more tactful and digestible format, which would potentially increase the likelihood of it being absorbed and retained by your audience. "Who cares." is vague and not very representative of anything mankind has observed... Someone tends to care, these 'someones' tend to be a surprisingly large sample of the population, some of these 'someones' become overwhelmed by a surge of zealotry and are compelled to evangelize their newly realized 'epiphany' to the whole world.
What a crock. There were hundreds of millions (at least) at one point who also cared very much about the idea that the world was flat. Your appeals to numbers are inconsequential. Try something else.
 

Mark Charles Compton

Pineal Peruser
Why do you think I'm pushing an agenda? As far as the supernatural, I don't even know what I believe necessarily... To be able to push or evangelize it onto others at all. I'm just trying to convince people to be nicer and more positive to one another, especially when there is a misunderstanding or error that can be corrected in one of our ways of thinking. Aggression and negativity will drive a critter further into the darkness and comfort of its nest, only fortifying its feeling of safety and familiarity with its current environment. ;)

What are you talking about? Who regards my opinion "so highly"? Who? You think I expect anyone to?
The bin that you were going to rename would lead me to believe, perhaps there's a contradiction here.
"Millions actually care whether or not I care, and talk to me about it quite frequently, and so I am forced to care" bin. How about that?
Remember?

However, in my life, I still have people like you come along, who insist on things like my arrogance for denying the goofy ideas they bring from the depths of their imaginations. Or, rather, that they are parroting from the stories told from imaginings of their forebears. And so, I then feel obliged to formulate some kind of response or reply. I mean... you literally EXPECT one, don't you? When you say things like how narcissistic I am or that I am psychologically manipulating some person or another?
What?! My initial interaction with you was in regard to your unnecessary and obviously false claim that 'no one cares' about pseudoscience or religions. Not about the claims themselves. Furthermore, this is NOT your post, you were NOT demanded to join this thread and post your initial response, that was all on your own volition.

What a crock. There were hundreds of millions (at least) at one point who also cared very much about the idea that the world was flat. Your appeals to numbers are inconsequential. Try something else.
You're ignoring the point of that post. SOMEONE cares, so you already fail at your admitted goal of opening minds to new ideas, when your initial argument includes the statement "who cares." My point here was that you can be more tactful and coercing in accomplishing your goals. You attract more flies with honey, than with vinegar.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Science does not work that way Native. It does not work such hard truth or knowledge claims. Ultimately it's a hypothesis. Even you are presenting a hypothesis. Tomorrow, another finding might come and confirm Dark Matter.

Actually, his "Electric Universe" cosmology doesn't even qualify as being a "hypothesis", because at the very a hypothesis at the very least, have to be "falsifiable", hence "testable".

Native have been for years trying to debunk gravity, trying to replace gravitational force with electromagnetic force. He has failed to demonstrate that.

And since Dark Matter have influences on gravity, not EM fields (eg cannot be viewed directly), Native still haven't been able to debunk Dark Matter.

But that's not his real problem.

He think that by debunking gravity or Dark Matter, it would mean his Electric Universe would become "science".

That's not how science works.

Every hypotheses and theories must each be tested and verified on its own merit, not by focusing on arguing against the theory of gravity or the Standard Model of Cosmology, which is currently the ΛCDM model (which stands for the Lambda-Cold Dark Matter model. Where Λ stands for "vacuum energy", or Dark Energy), the most recent model of the Big Bang theory.

Debunking Dark Matter won't verify Native's Electric Universe as the alternative scientific model.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
The big problem is dark matter and dark energy has never been observed in the lab to prove these are real and self standing.
You cannot test the whole Sun or any other stars in the lab.

Do you deny stars exist, because you cannot experiment a star in the lab?

The real world, NATURE, cannot be confine in labs, and so shouldn't science be so confined.
 

Mark Charles Compton

Pineal Peruser
Actually, his "Electric Universe" cosmology doesn't even qualify as being a "hypothesis", because at the very a hypothesis at the very least, have to be "falsifiable", hence "testable".

Native have been for years trying to debunk gravity, trying to replace gravitational force with electromagnetic force. He has failed to demonstrate that.

And since Dark Matter have influences on gravity, not EM fields (eg cannot be viewed directly), Native still haven't been able to debunk Dark Matter.

But that's not his real problem.

He think that by debunking gravity or Dark Matter, it would mean his Electric Universe would become "science".

That's not how science works.

Every hypotheses and theories must each be tested and verified on its own merit, not by focusing on arguing against the theory of gravity or the Standard Model of Cosmology, which is currently the ΛCDM model (which stands for the Lambda-Cold Dark Matter model. Where Λ stands for "vacuum energy", or Dark Energy), the most recent model of the Big Bang theory.

Debunking Dark Matter won't verify Native's Electric Universe as the alternative scientific model.
There's also something peculiar about the obsession with my fellow lay-people peers to 'disprove' or 'debunk' ideas and theories that are plausibly beyond their grasp of understanding in the first place. They seem to behave like it's a 'gotcha' moment or something, as if they believe academia is trying to conceal the truth or something, and the falsification of an accepted theory is feared or avoided by academics, when its actually closer to science's actual goal/purpose of narrowing down our understanding to the core truth.

If one doesn't understand how the inner workings of a theory functions, how can one propose to disprove that theory with another, which is probably equally misunderstand. :confused:
 

Bathos Logos

Active Member
Why do you think I'm pushing an agenda?
Because you're being argumentative with me when I did nothing more than use a colloquial phrase of "Who cares?" which was merely to indicate that I did not care and believe that others should not care so much either. More on this later, since you seem to have taken it to mean that I believed that "no one cares" - which is not the case at all, obviously, since I stated that there are many around me who care, and try to push their agenda on me, or at least shame me for not caring and "hurting their feelings" (most likely - and something that you seem to be trying to point out to me, and that you seem to feel is very important).

I'm just trying to convince people to be nicer and more positive to one another
Here's where I get the idea that you're very worried about "feelings".

Aggression and negativity will drive a critter further into the darkness and comfort of its nest, only fortifying its feeling of safety and familiarity with its current environment. ;)
Let's remember that you responded to one of my posts that wasn't even directed toward you. I do the same things, but I understand it to be aggressive behavior. You, on the other hand, seem to want to lie to yourself and pretend that you are only fostering positivity and peace. However, I distinctly remember some aggressive words from you, along the lines of:
Mark Charles Compton said:
Seems a bit narcissistic, if I'm to be honest.

Would you rather be ignored by all these 'millions', seas of people, whom all regard your opinion so highly? Honestly, I'd probably steer away from social media if I were as famous and sought after as yourself.
Here we have you calling me "narcissistic" - is that more honey or vinegar, do you think? And then we have you being sarcastic (bits in red italic) and very obviously thinking yourself oh so clever. It's fun sticking it to people, isn't it? Or are we not keen on admitting that? Or maybe it's just you who is not keen on admitting to such... Mr. Peaceful Honey Positivity.

The bin that you were going to rename would lead me to believe, perhaps there's a contradiction here.

Remember?
So you think that my pointing out that there are millions of people who try and push various opinions on me, and that they get upset when I don't take the bait, is also me thinking that everyone cares about my opinion? How does that work? Non sequitur much? If you're finding yourself confused by all the paper-trail here, I suggest you go back and read what you were actually responding to. it matches up to my assessment here - that being that you have matched two completely different ideas and seem to think that you've got me cornered somehow.

What?! My initial interaction with you was in regard to your unnecessary and obviously false claim that 'no one cares' about pseudoscience or religions.
And here we come back to this. I understand if English is not your first language, but the phrase "Who cares?" is not necessarily used to indicate that the belief that "no one cares" is being held. It is more to relay the idea that the speaker, himself/herself, does not care, and perhaps also that he/she doesn't think it behooves anyone else to care. It doesn't mean that the speaker literally believes that "no one cares". Obviously plenty of people care about religious ideas, and I can be perfectly coherent and without contradiction to admit and understand that many people care about a particular proposition, but believe that many of those people are doing so without warrant, or even feel that they shouldn't hold the proposition in such high regard. Please do go ahead and let me know of any contradiction you see in that further clarification of my position.

Furthermore, this is NOT your post, you were NOT demanded to join this thread and post your initial response, that was all on your own volition.
And? What happens? This indicates that I "care" about these ideas? You're misconstruing my position for your own pleasure and attempts to, again, push the agenda of "acceptance" of these ideas. The ideas themselves I do not care about for my own purposes. As in - I am not about to adopt them, or utilize them in my life, or accept or entertain them as being representative of "reality", etc. As stated, I can literally not devote any of my time to the things supposedly in existence and proposed as such by these ideas, and there is literally zero effect on my life and livelihood. That is me not caring about the literal implications of the ideas, the subject-matter of "god" or even "the electromagnetic roots of dark matter". However, what I do care about (and as you can see, pretty passionately) is seeing people push these ideas and expect others to jump on board their trains to nowhere, all the while pretending that the implications they believe they have stumbled onto are of the utmost importance. Most especially when those beliefs are founded on very shaky ground, with little justification and terrible excuses made as to why the justification and grounding of the ideas is so very terrible.
 
Last edited:

Mark Charles Compton

Pineal Peruser
Here's where I get the idea that you're very worried about "feelings".
I am. I believe that is a root of the problems today, and results from a lack of tact. I don't expect people to accept claims like this at face value, or even be genial or jovial...

believe that many of those people are doing so without warrant, or even feel that they shouldn't hold the proposition in such high regard.
(just hypothetical to expose you the contradiction you requested) If I were in the practice of or intending on convincing the OP that the video he linked was bull malarkey, your post would have effectively put him into a defensive position, increasing the grade of the slope to the uphill battle in front of myself. If you wish for them to discontinue holding high regard where unwarranted, you're going about it wrong.

You, on the other hand, seem to want to lie to yourself and pretend that you are only fostering positivity and peace.
Negative begets negative, positive begets positive. Love and be loved.

I mirror what I see. Monkey see, monkey do.
Troll and be trolled.
 

Bathos Logos

Active Member
I am. I believe that is a root of the problems today, and results from a lack of tact. I don't expect people to accept claims like this at face value, or even be genial or jovial...
Too much emphasis is put on "tact". People come to believe they are entitled to it. This is not the case. Thick skin is far more useful. Even here, I am sure you think you are "getting to me". But notice that I will reply every time you do. There is no fear in this for me. No worry that you have some card up your sleeve that trumps mine. I adhere to my principles in all that I do, and my principles do not need to mirror your principles. You can argue your case, and I will read it... but when it all boils down to only opinion, there we may arrive at somewhat of an impasse I am afraid.

(just hypothetical to expose you the contradiction you requested) If I were in the practice of or intending on convincing the OP that the video he linked was bull malarkey, your post would have effectively put him into a defensive position, increasing the grade of the slope to the uphill battle in front of myself. If you wish for them to discontinue holding high regard where unwarranted, you're going about it wrong.
Wow. So the supposed "contradiction" in my words lies in the idea that if you were to try and take a stance against the video linked in the OP and present evidence of convincing him that it was incorrect or fallacious, you would have a harder time doing so because I had "poisoned the well"? That makes my stance contradictory to itself? Is that what you're trying to argue here? Seriously? Please... please, for the love of all that is logical and sensible, please realize the inanity of this. You're literally stating that I shouldn't, by my own principles, be warranted to inform someone that I do not care about their proposition, just in case someone else wants to argue the antithesis of their position. This is just freaking weird.

Negative begets negative, positive begets positive. Love and be loved.
I would have expected negativity, or did you not see me openly admit to being aggressive and negative? However you very much seemed to like to portray yourself as (your words here) "being one of the rare ones who cares", and, apparently according to your own principles:
Aggression and negativity will drive a critter further into the darkness and comfort of its nest, only fortifying its feeling of safety and familiarity with its current environment.
I have not acted contrary to my principles. Can you say the same?

I mirror what I see. Monkey see, monkey do.
Troll and be trolled.
Bring it. I see nothing but falling down all over the place and when you realize your face is hitting the pavement, you do the equivalent of claiming that the blood dripping from your broken nose is at least landing on some sort of "high ground".
 

Mark Charles Compton

Pineal Peruser
I have not acted contrary to my principles. Can you say the same?
I have not acted contrary to my principles.

Wow. So the supposed "contradiction" in my words lies in the idea that if you were to try and take a stance against the video linked in the OP and present evidence of convincing him that it was incorrect or fallacious, you would have a harder time doing so because I had "poisoned the well"? That makes my stance contradictory to itself? Is that what you're trying to argue here? Seriously? Please... please, for the love of all that is logical and sensible, please realize the inanity of this. You're literally stating that I shouldn't, by my own principles, be warranted to inform someone that I do not care about their proposition, just in case someone else wants to argue the antithesis of their position. This is just freaking weird.
This is a strawman. You're the one who expressed concern over misinformation posts like this being promoted:
However, what I do care about (and as you can see, pretty passionately) is seeing people push these ideas and expect others to jump on board their trains to nowhere, all the while pretending that the implications they believe they have stumbled onto are of the utmost importance. Most especially when those beliefs are founded on very shaky ground, with little justification and terrible excuses made as to why the justification and grounding of the ideas is so very terrible.
I agree, only difference is I think we need to nip the problem in the bud, with education reform. If they get to adulthood still wielding a faulty critical thinking skill, it becomes exponentially less likely to change their mind, which is the territory this post falls.

Bring it. I see nothing but falling down all over the place and when you realize your face is hitting the pavement
That's how I intimidate! I flop around on the ground (High ground, I might add. High ground, and a lack of pavement out here in the sticks.) and I start breaking inanimate objects with my face. If he wants to get uppity, I'll break a man's fist on my face! Last week I almost had to break off a horse's hoof with this here hot-air-filled shillelagh!

(Actually, my nose is the only bone I've broken in my nigh 40 years, when someone breaks their nose, is it a broken bone? It was not from a fight by the way... Why do they paint the bottom of swimming pools blue?!)

Ya, that's right, I'll break poured concrete pools with this here face! So, I guess we better stop being glib, or I'll be overwhelmed with apprehension, and I'll start swinging around this cudgel I have on my shoulders. Lol.
 

Bathos Logos

Active Member
I have not acted contrary to my principles.
So you're entirely fine with using direct and passive aggression for your own purposes in interactions with others, correct? Remember the "monkey see, monkey do" comment, plus all the stuff you said about honey versus vinegar and the propensity for "critters" to retreat into their hovels (or whatever the hell) as you reply to this.

This is a strawman.
That you were blaming me for your possible inability to effectively challenge anything you felt was misinformation in the video presented? Not even real/tangible inability, mind you. but only hypothetical per your own admission. That is no strawman - that is a description of exactly the shenanigans you were trying to peddle to me as the reasons I shouldn't express my lack of caring about the subject matter. Please remember that that is exactly where this began. Not with my refuting anything in the video (which you knew, because you were the one who posed refutation as a possibility in your hypothetical scenario). Again - this is you telling me that I shouldn't be expressing my lack of care over the subject matter because I might want to foster someone else's attempts to refute the material. How do you even know I care about refuting the material directly? Oh... that's right... you quoted this from me:
Me said:
However, what I do care about (and as you can see, pretty passionately) is seeing people push these ideas and expect others to jump on board their trains to nowhere, all the while pretending that the implications they believe they have stumbled onto are of the utmost importance. Most especially when those beliefs are founded on very shaky ground, with little justification and terrible excuses made as to why the justification and grounding of the ideas is so very terrible.
Note that I don't state anything at all about the person being explicitly wrong about their ideas! You are reading all sorts of things into this that simply aren't there. This is precisely how I know you have some form of agenda, even though you keep denying it. All I state is that I don't like seeing people push various ideas on others when their justification is shaky. I didn't say they were wrong, or that they should be refuted. No. I simply don't think their ideas warrant anyone else's care about them. And their pushing the ideas is most certainly them trying to get someone else to care about them. If the justification is crap, then they should just keep their mouths shut until they have better justifications. And I will tell them I think so. And this is me worrying about refuting them? Hardly! I don't want that burden! I'm not about to present actual "evidence" that they are wrong, or what have you. I will only be there to point out the flaws in their foundation, and ask them to pony up something worthwhile before the conversation continues. You are conflating two very different things, and calling me contradictory when no such thing is going on.

I agree, only difference is I think we need to nip the problem in the bud, with education reform.
You seem to think they literally need refuted... but the "education or reform" that I would like to see is not to "teach them how wrong they are" - it would be to teach them what it means to have adequate evidence, and to accept things only when adequate evidence is provided. You see, your stance is very much to the detriment of open-minded thought. I am willing to entertain any idea under the sun, as long as the evidence is there that backs it up. As long as it is demonstrable, and matches or predicts what can be observed in reality. This even includes "god" ideas! You think I wouldn't accept that there were some being called "god" if it literally showed up and started interacting with human beings in a real and demonstrable way? Seriously? Of course I would! I might try figuring out precisely what it is and where it came from, like many others would probably also be doing, but I would accept its existence from moment one of such obvious effect on reality.

That's how I intimidate! I flop around on the ground (High ground, I might add. High ground, and a lack of pavement out here in the sticks.) and I start breaking inanimate objects with my face. If he wants to get uppity, I'll break a man's fist on my face! Last week I almost had to break off a horse's hoof with this here hot-air-filled shillelagh!

(Actually, my nose is the only bone I've broken in my nigh 40 years, when someone breaks their nose, is it a broken bone? It was not from a fight by the way... Why do they paint the bottom of swimming pools blue?!)

Ya, that's right, I'll break poured concrete pools with this here face! So, I guess we better stop being glib, or I'll be overwhelmed with apprehension, and I'll start swinging around this cudgel I have on my shoulders. Lol.
I figured as much, honestly.
 

Mark Charles Compton

Pineal Peruser
So you're entirely fine with using direct and passive aggression for your own purposes in interactions with others, correct? Remember the "monkey see, monkey do" comment, plus all the stuff you said about honey versus vinegar and the propensity for "critters" to retreat into their hovels (or whatever the hell) as you reply to this.

Yes, I repeat. If I see someone being flippantly and intentionally offensive, I will share in their flavors with them. Fair is fair. I try not to insult or to attack character, and keep my argument to their technique and etiquette, but "to err is human; to forgive, divine."

That you were blaming me for your possible inability to effectively challenge anything you felt was misinformation in the video presented? Not even real/tangible inability, mind you. but only hypothetical per your own admission. That is no strawman - that is a description of exactly the shenanigans you were trying to peddle to me as the reasons I shouldn't express my lack of caring about the subject matter. Please remember that that is exactly where this began. Not with my refuting anything in the video (which you knew, because you were the one who posed refutation as a possibility in your hypothetical scenario). Again - this is you telling me that I shouldn't be expressing my lack of care over the subject matter because I might want to foster someone else's attempts to refute the material. How do you even know I care about refuting the material directly?

Riddle me this Batman: How does one express a lack of care? The act of posting was an expression of care and concern. If I do not care about something, I simply giving it any of my energy, even a simple post. When you hear me or see me expressing aloud, "I don't care!" that is a clear sign of me reaching defeat, I'm about to give up in frustration because I 'flew too high and burnt the wing' thus the outburst of defiance.

Note that I don't state anything at all about the person being explicitly wrong about their ideas! You are reading all sorts of things into this that simply aren't there. This is precisely how I know you have some form of agenda, even though you keep denying it. All I state is that I don't like seeing people push various ideas on others when their justification is shaky. I didn't say they were wrong, or that they should be refuted. No. I simply don't think their ideas warrant anyone else's care about them. And their pushing the ideas is most certainly them trying to get someone else to care about them. If the justification is crap, then they should just keep their mouths shut until they have better justifications. And I will tell them I think so. And this is me worrying about refuting them? Hardly! I don't want that burden! I'm not about to present actual "evidence" that they are wrong, or what have you. I will only be there to point out the flaws in their foundation, and ask them to pony up something worthwhile before the conversation continues. You are conflating two very different things, and calling me contradictory when no such thing is going on.

I suppose I was assuming that your disapproval of someone pushing a theory was equivalent or at least relative to your desire as well as your intent to see it removed from public forum. My apologies if that is not the case. It does leave me wondering why expel any energy on it at all, but it's your energy to spend as you choose. Here's to hoping you produce more positive than negative on your day to day, and that you receive it back onto you in turn. :D

You seem to think they literally need refuted... but the "education or reform" that I would like to see is not to "teach them how wrong they are" - it would be to teach them what it means to have adequate evidence, and to accept things only when adequate evidence is provided. You see, your stance is very much to the detriment of open-minded thought. I am willing to entertain any idea under the sun, as long as the evidence is there that backs it up. As long as it is demonstrable, and matches or predicts what can be observed in reality. This even includes "god" ideas! You think I wouldn't accept that there were some being called "god" if it literally showed up and started interacting with human beings in a real and demonstrable way? Seriously? Of course I would! I might try figuring out precisely what it is and where it came from, like many others would probably also be doing, but I would accept its existence from moment one of such obvious effect on reality.

Ahah! I see you fall to the same assumptions of my desires vs. disapprovals, hehe.
I don't necessarily wish to refute the ideas of others, though there are some I will argue against all day¹.
I certainly do, however, want kids to have the best toolkit we can provide them with. I want kids to be better educated on how to critically think, and ask strong questions, and how to assess situations and scenarios, and evaluate data and recognize false patterns from real ones.

(just hypothetical to expose you the contradiction you requested) If I were in the practice of or intending on convincing the OP that the video he linked was bull malarkey, your post would have effectively put him into a defensive position
These are not my actual practices, or intentions, nor sentiments. It would appear you're attempting to accuse me of them, if not worse. Such as the literal accuse that my stance is detrimental to open-minded thought. Which the primary position I've tried to argue for is "tact", which you claimed people have false entitlement to. I would argue it may be less of an entitlement and more of a yearning, as the social media and anonymity of the internet has resulted in a lot of salt and toxic interactions. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, well, a lot of young people take their lives as a result of the internet, so I don't think it's thickening their skin, as it killed them.

You think I wouldn't accept that there were some being called "god" if it literally showed up and started interacting with human beings in a real and demonstrable way? Seriously? Of course I would! I might try figuring out precisely what it is and where it came from, like many others would probably also be doing, but I would accept its existence from moment one of such obvious effect on reality.
Interesting revelation to your perception of the world. Personally, I would be skeptical to that being. I would probably be one of the first victims that it used miraculous or magical abilities on. My mind goes to the quote attributed to Arthur C. Clarke that 'any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic'. Perhaps I'll save you from making the mistake of doubting a true God... Lol. I'm not certain who had the worst fate in this hypothetical. :eek:

¹I have a friend who thinks Antarctica is off limits, I'm not sure if he thinks it's the mega ice wall around the flat earth or not... He's used language that makes me think he believes there's a dome above us, Truman Show-esque. He gets very worked up over it, but I just can't stay silent when he starts talking about the "hole in Antarctica" with the other species'... :( Even though I know I cannot convince him in any substantial way of any explanation to what he has seen or will see, I feel a desire or even a need to. A part of me wants to think that he isn't sincere in his beliefs, but that would require some Olympic level mental gymnastics, for him to have pulled it off this long 3+ years.
 

Bathos Logos

Active Member
Yes, I repeat. If I see someone being flippantly and intentionally offensive, I will share in their flavors with them. Fair is fair. I try not to insult or to attack character, and keep my argument to their technique and etiquette, but "to err is human; to forgive, divine."
Then snark away. I will not stop nor harass you about it again. If it is entirely within your wheelhouse, and you admit it, then there is absolutely no qualm to have.

Riddle me this Batman: How does one express a lack of care? The act of posting was an expression of care and concern. If I do not care about something, I simply giving it any of my energy, even a simple post. When you hear me or see me expressing aloud, "I don't care!" that is a clear sign of me reaching defeat, I'm about to give up in frustration because I 'flew too high and burnt the wing' thus the outburst of defiance.
I've told you multiple times now - my expressing the lack of care was for the subject matter of the belief, not the expression of the belief itself. Do you understand this, or no?

I suppose I was assuming that your disapproval of someone pushing a theory was equivalent or at least relative to your desire as well as your intent to see it removed from public forum.
What I want to see removed is all the flimflam that doesn't have adequate justification/demonstration/evidence. That I don't care about the subject matter is one thing... lack of evidence is quite another. I will object to the presentation based on grounds of lack of or a poor state of evidence. However, I can still not care about the meat of subject matter being proposed using that poor (or no) evidence.

My apologies if that is not the case. It does leave me wondering why expel any energy on it at all, but it's your energy to spend as you choose. Here's to hoping you produce more positive than negative on your day to day, and that you receive it back onto you in turn. :D
Yes, best to leave my expenditures of energies to my own discretion. You'd likely wish me to grant you the same courtesy, no?

Ahah! I see you fall to the same assumptions of my desires vs. disapprovals, hehe.
I don't necessarily wish to refute the ideas of others, though there are some I will argue against all day¹.
I certainly do, however, want kids to have the best toolkit we can provide them with. I want kids to be better educated on how to critically think, and ask strong questions, and how to assess situations and scenarios, and evaluate data and recognize false patterns from real ones.
You are correct. I slipped and read more into your reply than was actually there. My apologies.

These are not my actual practices, or intentions, nor sentiments. It would appear you're attempting to accuse me of them, if not worse. Such as the literal accuse that my stance is detrimental to open-minded thought.
As stated in my last paragraph, understood, and the accusation is then no longer pertinent.

Which the primary position I've tried to argue for is "tact", which you claimed people have false entitlement to. I would argue it may be less of an entitlement and more of a yearning, as the social media and anonymity of the internet has resulted in a lot of salt and toxic interactions. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, well, a lot of young people take their lives as a result of the internet, so I don't think it's thickening their skin, as it killed them.
If the heat of the kitchen literally kills you, then you probably shouldn't have been cooking. I understand the impetus to ask people to be more considerate, I do. However, banking on that is trouble, and there are dispositions one can adopt and ideas one can employ to dampen the effects of the words of others, if not negate their intended effects completely. If one has been told this, and offered it, yet wishes to deny that this is possible and insist that words must be granted power over one's mind, and then complains continually of being attacked by words, well then they have chosen their fate. Believe me - I have tried on multiple occasions to share this understanding with others, and all they ever do is defend their "right" to be offended. There is something to that. Something that doesn't speak well of people's fortitude in the first place.

Interesting revelation to your perception of the world. Personally, I would be skeptical to that being. I would probably be one of the first victims that it used miraculous or magical abilities on. My mind goes to the quote attributed to Arthur C. Clarke that 'any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic'. Perhaps I'll save you from making the mistake of doubting a true God... Lol. I'm not certain who had the worst fate in this hypothetical. :eek:
I would also be skeptical, hence the reason I stated I would try and figure out what it was and where it was from. But its existence (whatever it ultimately was) would be verified. That's what I was getting at. To the point that, if someone came to me and said "God has arrived! Come see!" and then lead me to something they were calling "god", and I saw it and interacted with it demonstrably, and in front of other witnesses, well then I would believe in this thing they were calling "god". As to whether it is, truly, a "god" by some definition I would accept is somewhat irrelevant to whether or not I would believe in the thing they had lead me to and demonstrated to me.
 

Mark Charles Compton

Pineal Peruser
Hmm, no papers. Okay. The OP gave us a "PhD" I present a "Professor":


Okay, he was a chemistry professor at a college but now makes his money on YouTube. He bases his work on peer reviewed science and is not afraid to use peer reviewed papers to support his claims and at times he will even interview the experts in the field. You will not see the awkward jump cuts when believers in woo woo do interviews where it appears that the questions asked are not the topics that the expert replied to. He also does not put himself forward as an expert but constantly refers to the works of experts in the field when necessary.

It would seem this is related to the video you linked, a "Electric Sun Universe" theory... His subscribers wanted him to debunk this one after the one you linked was posted.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
To the 'believers' the evidence is always irrefutable.
No, the physical evidence are part of natural phenomena or physical phenomena that are being observed and tested.

What are refutable are the “explanatory” MODELS & “predictive” MODELS of the scientific theories or hypotheses.

It is the MODEL that can always be questioned or challenged.

And you would never just rely on one observation of evidence. Science required multiple evidence, the more evidence you have, the better grasp scientists would have to verify or to refute hypothesis or theory.

Having as many evidence you (scientists) can independently acquired, are part of “verification”.

As both @Subduction Zone & @ChristineM have said, one of the “indirect evidence” for Dark Matter is gravitational lensing.

Gravitational lensing have been observed where there are no ordinary matters or objects to create the gravitational field that distort the images of observations.

Gravitational lensing have been observed independently by different astronomers and astrophysicists from different observatories around the world. Plus, for decades, the Hubble have recorded a number of such observations.

So, gravitational lensing have been observed

(A) when there are ordinary matters (eg clouds of hydrogen gas and dust) and objects (eg asteroids, planets, stars, galaxies), are around,

(B) and when not of these ordinary matters and objects are absence in the observations.​

For so many observations where there visible ordinary matters and objects around, then something else must have masses that caused gravitational distortion that EM cannot detect.

Ordinary matters (any molecule of atoms in the periodic table) give certain electromagnetic signatures that astrophysicists can recognize.

For instances, the most abundant elements in the universe is hydrogen. Hydrogen can distinguish between cold neutral hydrogen gas and plasma of hydrogen. Both give different EM wavelengths whether they be cold gas form or in plasma form (ionized hydrogen). Astrophysicists can also identify helium, carbon, oxygen, etc, in space, through radio astronomy.

There are matters that are not detected electromagnetically.

Did you know there are some elementary subatomic particles that exhibit the same characteristics as dark matter?

These are groups of neutrinos (there are 3 types).

Neutrinos don’t interact with EM forces and strong nuclear forces, but do interact with gravitational forces and weak nuclear forces.

Meaning, neutrinos have no electrical charge (hence are not affected by EM forces), but do have masses. But the mass is so small, it has even less mass than electron. The point being, radio telescopes relied on EM waves (eg infrared, ultraviolet, microwave, radiowaves, etc) to detect matters and large physical bodies (eg planets, stars, etc), but you cannot use radio astronomy to detect these neutrinos.

Neutrinos are detect underground, using phototubes, and some of medium, like heavy water or solid plastic. Observations are taken underground, because neutrinos are streaming quickly, passing through solid object, like the Earth for instance, without slowly down, so detection are difficult.

Dark Matter are like neutrinos, that can interface with gravitation, but not electromagnetic forces.

Anyway. What we can determine about Dark Matter, is they do have mass, but do not reflect or absorb EM waves.
 
Top