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Darwin's Illusion

cladking

Well-Known Member

Oh!!!! What experiment underlies "the theory of "they mustta used ramps" or "they mustta been superstitious"?

What experiment underlies the belief that we don't need to understand consciousness to study life?

What experiment shows that unlike every single other thing that affects individuals change in species occurs gradually?

Where is your experiment to show luck, happenstance, and randomness doesn't occur to every individual at all times?

Where is your experiment to show that we even are aware of every variable that affects how, when, why, and in what manner life changes?

You believe in gradual change solely because of the "fossil record" but no experiment has ever been performed on the fossil record. No definitions have even been put forward with regard to saying when or where each species arose but you know how. How species arise is countless quintillions of orders of magnitude more complex then other questions involving change in species and you believe the entire formatting of all these changes has been laid bare by simply observing the fossil record without performing experiment.

Again, it is possible Evolution is essentially correct but there is no experiment to show it and there are simpler explanations for all of our observations and experiments.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Who are these "believers"?
Personally I know of nobody who looks at peers that way.
I also don't understand your obsessive need to capitalize that word.

Experts are peers who define state of the art in every field. Believers in Peers are those who think Science is settled about anything at all and Peers hand down Truth and Reality itself.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Experts are peers who define state of the art in every field. Believers in Peers are those who think Science is settled about anything at all and Peers hand down Truth and Reality itself.

Ok.

Like I said, I know of nobody who thinks that way.
So I can only wonder who you are talking about.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Then perform an experiment to show how dinosaurs evolved into birds, if they really did. Be sure to make your work peer reviewable.

:rolleyes:

Evolution theory is a mechanism, a process.

What you are asking about is evolutionary history.

I'm sorry if you can't comprehend the difference.

As for birds being descendants of dinosaurs (or better put: as for birds BEING dinosaurs; theropods), there's lots and lots of evidence.

How Dinosaurs Shrank and Became Birds - Scientific American

Birds are dino's just like humans are mammals.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Oh!!!! What experiment underlies "the theory of "they mustta used ramps" or "they mustta been superstitious"?

What are you on about?

What experiment underlies the belief that we don't need to understand consciousness to study life?

The statement was that experiment underlies theory.
What you are asking about here does not concern a theory.

What experiment shows that unlike every single other thing that affects individuals change in species occurs gradually?

Every agricultural program.
Every live birth.
Every long term evolution experiment.
Every cultivation program.

Members of species X don't give birth to members of subspecies Y.
The borders between species are blurry, not fixed.
This is so because evolution is gradual.

Every individual ever born was of the same species as its parents.
Just like every individual ever born grew up speaking the language of its parents and peers.
Yet latin turned into french, spanish, italian,...
But at no point in history did a latin speaking mother raise a spanish speaking child.

I'm sorry if you can't understand that.

Where is your experiment to show luck, happenstance, and randomness doesn't occur to every individual at all times?

Populations evolve. Individuals don't.
Individuals introduce change. But unless the change spreads to the rest of the population (which takes a lot of generations, which incidentally is why it is necessarily gradual), no evolution is occurring.

Consider change in language again. Say the new verbe "to google".
If one person starts using it and nobody else picks it up, that usage will disappear with the individual upon its death.

If others pick it up and it spreads to the general population, it can be said to be a new verbe in the english language and it will start showing up in dictionaries.


Where is your experiment to show that we even are aware of every variable that affects how, when, why, and in what manner life changes?

No idea which "theory" this is supposed to be about.

You believe in gradual change solely because of the "fossil record"

No. I accept gradual change due to observation, experiment and general understanding of the mechanism of how change is introduced and subsequently spreads throughout the population over generations if and when it is picked up by natural selection.

but no experiment has ever been performed on the fossil record.

Kind of hard to experiment with dead things that no longer reproduce when the thing to be tested is how change happens through reproduction. :rolleyes:


No definitions have even been put forward with regard to saying when or where each species arose but you know how.

No idea what you are on about now. It sounds like yet another ginormous strawman.

How species arise is countless quintillions of orders of magnitude more complex then other questions involving change in species

Only in your head. It's actually quite a simple process. Which has been observed, fyi.
You might want to google "observed speciation".

and you believe the entire formatting of all these changes has been laid bare by simply observing the fossil record without performing experiment.

Again, no idea what you are on about here, but it again sounds like a strawman.

Again, it is possible Evolution is essentially correct but there is no experiment to show it

Especially not if you ignore all the experiments.

and there are simpler explanations for all of our observations and experiments.

Do those "simple" explanations involve invoking magic?
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Every agricultural program.

Nonsense.

Ancient people invented agriculture. Are we to believe they understood Evolution or that they used the power of superstition to do it?

Every live birth.

Every single parent in ancient times was a life birth. Was this science?

Every long term evolution experiment.

This doesn't exist. The longest isn't even 50 years.

Populations evolve. Individuals don't.

Nonsense. If a species changes then some individual is eventually born whom is distinct from his ancestors. you can't have your cake and eat it to. You can't change anything at all without changing something.

No. I accept gradual change due to observation, experimen...

You keep saying that but you can't identify a single experiment other than the uncontolled e coli experiment. You can't identify a single scientific observation. Look and See Science is not science at all.

Again, no idea what you are on about here, but it again sounds like a strawman.

You want to boil change in species down to "survival of the fittest". You want to reduce reality to the fossil record and the belief that species exist, but not individuals and consciousness. You want to ignore the fact that every known change in life or consciousness on every level and of every type occurs suddenly just like the epochs that you ignore.

Do those "simple" explanations involve invoking magic?

It is magical to believe science works through Peers, looking/ seeing, and reduction of some of the parameters of reality to observation. It is magic to assume you have all the answers even when observation flies in the face of those answers. All settled science is magic by definition.

Ok.

Like I said, I know of nobody who thinks that way.
So I can only wonder who you are talking about.

And I've already told you a million times who the scientismists are. They are largely laymen who think that studying textbooks and state of the art is sufficient to know everything. Even many real scientists are more mystics than metaphysicians. Most people who know everything are actually exceedingly poor at applying their knowledge to the real world such as invention, hypothesis formation, or experiment design. This applies whether they are auto mechanics or physicists.

All people are different (I've even told you how and why) so nothing at all applies to all people.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
What you are asking about is evolutionary history.

I'm sorry if you can't comprehend the difference.

If it were possible to actually go back and see where one species becomes another you could see that it didn't occur over millions of years as you believe. In virtually every case it happened suddenly. One generation is obviously the old species and then another 1 to 4 generations later is clearly the new species. This occurs at bottlenecks which you interpret as a new epoch.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Nonsense.

Ancient people invented agriculture. Are we to believe they understood Evolution or that they used the power of superstition to do it?

False dichotomy. They did not need to understand evolution for it to work.

Every single parent in ancient times was a life birth. Was this science?

Whooooshhhhh! A point went over your head and you did not understand it. Even worse you did not properly ask questions about it.


This doesn't exist. The longest isn't even 50 years.

E. coli long-term evolution experiment - Wikipedia

Hey! You don't even exist? What are you doing here.

Sorry @cladking , I tried but it is still there.

Nonsense. If a species changes then some individual is eventually born whom is distinct from his ancestors. you can't have your cake and eat it to. You can't change anything at all without changing something.

I am "distinct from my parents". Or are you just using terminology that you cannot defend again?

You keep saying that but you can't identify a single experiment other than the uncontolled e coli experiment. You can't identify a single scientific observation. Look and See Science is not science at all.

Sure we can. But there is no point. You have to own up to your false claims about the long term E. coli experiment first.

You want to boil change in species down to "survival of the fittest". You want to reduce reality to the fossil record and the belief that species exist, but not individuals and consciousness. You want to ignore the fact that every known change in life or consciousness on every level and of every type occurs suddenly just like the epochs that you ignore.

No, that would be you using a strawman argument again. If you do not understand then at least try to ask proper questions.

It is magical to believe science works through Peers, looking/ seeing, and reduction of some of the parameters of reality to observation. It is magic to assume you have all the answers even when observation flies in the face of those answers. All settled science is magic by definition.
And it is a good thing that science does not work that way. Your strawman version of science is just wrong.

And I've already told you a million times who the scientismists are. They are largely laymen who think that studying textbooks and state of the art is sufficient to know everything. Even many real scientists are more mystics than metaphysicians. Most people who know everything are actually exceedingly poor at applying their knowledge to the real world such as invention, hypothesis formation, or experiment design. This applies whether they are auto mechanics or physicists.

Oh. So no one that you have debated with on the forums. Or even any well known scientists at all.

So why do you keep using that false accusation?

All people are different (I've even told you how and why) so nothing at all applies to all people.


Now you just refuted an earlier claim of yours. Please make up your mind.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
If it were possible to actually go back and see where one species becomes another you could see that it didn't occur over millions of years as you believe. In virtually every case it happened suddenly. One generation is obviously the old species and then another 1 to 4 generations later is clearly the new species. This occurs at bottlenecks which you interpret as a new epoch.
How are you going to prove that? An unsupported claim is worthless.

if it were possible to go back and see we would see that the signing of the Declaration of Independence was done by magical invisible puce fairies. They perfect mimicked the hand motions of the alleged signers.

Hmmm, it looks like my claim is as valid as yours since neither of us have evidence for our claims.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Oh!!!! What experiment underlies "the theory of "they mustta used ramps" or "they mustta been superstitious"?

What are you on about?

He is talking about Egypt, and about pyramid building, again.

I know, you were talking about Evolution, then he would switch topic, and go on and on with his anti-Egyptology rants.

Evolution and Egyptology (especially how pyramids were built) have nothing to do with each other, and yet he will bring it up.

In past threads, cladking will mix biology and engineering skills of ancient Egyptians together as if they were one and the same. So he would lumped biologists with his hated nemesis - the Egyptologists.

I don’t understand the logic of his personal belief.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Populations evolve. Individuals don't.
Nonsense. If a species changes then some individual is eventually born whom is distinct from his ancestors. you can't have your cake and eat it to. You can't change anything at all without changing something.

You are taking what TagliatelliMonster say out-of-context. You only cherrypicked his first paragraph, while ignoring the rest of his explanation about population and individual:

Populations evolve. Individuals don't.
Individuals introduce change. But unless the change spreads to the rest of the population (which takes a lot of generations, which incidentally is why it is necessarily gradual), no evolution is occurring.

If you bother to read both paragraphs together, then you would understand what he meant by the first paragraph.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Evolution and Egyptology (especially how pyramids were built) have nothing to do with each other, and yet he will bring it up.

No. The pyramid builders enjoyed the "theory of change in species". They didn't understand Evolution in part because it is wrong and just Look ands see Science.

You are taking what TagliatelliMonster say out-of-context. You only cherrypicked his first paragraph, while ignoring the rest of his explanation about population and individual:

No. Populations are individuals. Everybody is an individual and there is no such thing as "species". It is an abstraction. The referent for "species" is a collection of individuals who can only exist inside of consciousness and the logic of reality. By focusing on species you are overlooking the trees in favor of the forest and you are overlooking the cause of speciation which only involves individuals. You want to understand great complexity through observation of the "fossil record". The fossil record meanwhile proves all change in species is sudden but sheds little or no light on the cause. Darwin wanted to believe in "survival of the fittest" as surely as any Egyptologist wants to believe in ramps.

If you bother to read both paragraphs together, then you would understand what he meant by the first paragraph.

No. The second paragraph is just a restatement of his beliefs upon which I have cast grave doubt and you ignore. I doubt you can see my argument and this is why you never respond to it. Believers simply believe.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
How are you going to prove that? An unsupported claim is worthless.

if it were possible to go back and see we would see that the signing of the Declaration of Independence was done by magical invisible puce fairies. They perfect mimicked the hand motions of the alleged signers.

Hmmm, it looks like my claim is as valid as yours since neither of us have evidence for our claims.
I thought this thread was dead, but I see there are creationists bound and determined to show us all that they know absolutely nothing about science, biology, scientific theories or evolution.

I love how the anti-science Peers come up with the most ridiculous claims. The evidence of gradual change and speciation over time isn't real and if we could back in time we would see that. Except that they would have had to go back in time to make the counter claim of speciation being instantaneous or over a couple of generations. Since they offer no other evidence or explanation of how they could know the basis of that claim. There is no evidence that says that. Just wishful thinking and silliness. The things believers come up with.

Good luck with whatever nonsense is forthcoming, but I'm just passing through.
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
You need to define your terms. And you need a model. Right now this just looks like a restatement of your claims. It has too many flaws to be a proper test.

You seem to have forgotten that I specifically pointed out that the test could not be your claims.

Pathetic excuses. The test is neither my claim nor a restatement of my claim.

In your post # 2639, you asked, “What possible test could show your beliefs to be wrong? The test needs to based upon predictions of your model, not claims of your model.”

If everything is caused/designed/created by God not merely random interactions of somehow existing entities, then as I said in #2652 , “The prediction is that we should see intention/design/purpose in every entity from the entire universe to subatomic particles” without any exceptions, if an empirical test that can be executed with existing technologies shows through valid inference that a single entity is random without any characteristics of design/order/purpose, then the prediction is wrong and my belief is false.

Do you expect a test to see God? God is not a physical object that exists within spacetime and reflects light within the visible spectrum for you to see. If you cannot see the dark energy, strong nuclear force, gravity, magnetism, etc., how can you see God? Observable effects are the only evidence for the causes, we never see the causes, in fact, we never even understand its intrinsic nature or how it exerts its controlling influence over matter. We merely infer that it exists and has powers; we give it names. That’s very much it. It’s our threshold of knowledge that we cannot cross. God is the ultimate cause of all causes.

Well that is a lot of nothing. Word salad and nonsense does not mean that it is a reliable scientific paper.

Really!! Why is that? Is it merely because you don’t like it or understand it? why would that matter?

"Intelligence in Matter", is a study that investigates the intelligent non-random behavior at the atomic and molecular level that was conducted and published by the Portuguese University "University of São Paulo". see the link below.

Resultados da pesquisa por “Intelligence in Matter” – USP – Universidade de São Paulo

https://www.esalq.usp.br/lepse/imgs/conteudo_thumb/Intelligence-in-Matter.pdf

No, you only seem to have confirmation bias. You have not demonstrated one iota of evidence only empty claims.

And there is no need for us to disprove that there is no purpose. All we need to do is to explain how there is no evidence to be seen. The burden of proof is upon you since you are claiming that there is purpose.

Every organism has the vital life functions/systems essentially required to fit perfectly in its environment. Every organism plays an important role in the overall ecosystem functioning. I’m not making any claim. This is simply an observed fact.

The purpose is seen/evident. this is not the issue. The issue is the empty claim that observed design/purpose doesn’t have/need a designer but rather it’s a random product of slowly interacting entities. What is the basis for this claim? If you don’t see a designer, if you don’t understand the nature/mechanisms of the designer it’s not by any means evidence that the designer doesn’t exist.

You never seek independent evidence for the cause; the effect itself is always the evidence for the cause. If you observe a very complex functioning system, you logically infer that design/intelligence is involved even if you absolutely have no evidence/knowledge of the designer or the creation/fabrication process. The complex functioning characteristics of the product (the effect) is the evidence for the designer (the cause) even if you neither know nor can see the designer. If you don't agree that the effect is evidence for the cause, then you need to demonstrate your reasons.
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
You were not using the phase in the same context as in the article. And then there is this:

"This page contains too many unsourced statements and needs to be improved."

In other words, it is not up to snuff as written.

If RationalWiki page need improvement, it doesn’t change the fact that Infinite regress is a logical fallacy. Didn’t you see the other link (logicallyfallacious.com)? We shouldn’t argue about the basics.

Homunculus Fallacy (logicallyfallacious.com)

Infinite regress/ homunculus fallacy is a logical fallacy, the argument proposes an explanation, but the mechanism proposed stands just as much in need of explanation as the original fact to be explained--and indeed it stands in need of the same kind of explanation.

Infinite Regress (palomar.edu)

See # 56 of the thread “Infinite Regress” for more info.

Infinite Regress | Page 3 | Religious Forums
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
Not all of it since it was not that well written from a scientific perspective. And it is your job to quote the parts of it that supposedly support you.. It does not look like it would pass serious peer review which is why it is in a very obscure medical journal.

You don’t read or understand and just dwell in denial.

Didn’t I specifically mention line of evidence # 2 and # 3 in my post #2637 and #2625 and also provided a summary in #2625 (last item)? You may also see “conclusion of study” and "conclusion" at the end of the article

Near-Death Experiences Evidence for Their Reality - PMC (nih.gov)

(462) "Hidden Beyond the Veil" - Documentary - Jeffrey Long, M.D. - YouTube

NDERF Home Page

“Indeed, you were heedless of this, Now We have removed your veil and piercing is your sight today” [Qaf: 22]
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Pathetic excuses. The test is neither my claim nor a restatement of my claim.

In your post # 2639, you asked, “What possible test could show your beliefs to be wrong? The test needs to based upon predictions of your model, not claims of your model.”

If everything is caused/designed/created by God not merely random interactions of somehow existing entities, then as I said in #2652 , “The prediction is that we should see intention/design/purpose in every entity from the entire universe to subatomic particles” without any exceptions, if an empirical test that can be executed with existing technologies shows through valid inference that a single entity is random without any characteristics of design/order/purpose, then the prediction is wrong and my belief is false.

Do you expect a test to see God? God is not a physical object that exists within spacetime and reflects light within the visible spectrum for you to see. If you cannot see the dark energy, strong nuclear force, gravity, magnetism, etc., how can you see God? Observable effects are the only evidence for the causes, we never see the causes, in fact, we never even understand its intrinsic nature or how it exerts its controlling influence over matter. We merely infer that it exists and has powers; we give it names. That’s very much it. It’s our threshold of knowledge that we cannot cross. God is the ultimate cause of all causes.

Sorry, that is incredibly vague. And people could argue that it fails since there are instances of a "lack of design" quite frequently.

You are just desperately handwaving.

Try again

Really!! Why is that? Is it merely because you don’t like it or understand it? why would that matter?

"Intelligence in Matter", is a study that investigates the intelligent non-random behavior at the atomic and molecular level that was conducted and published by the Portuguese University "University of São Paulo". see the link below.

Resultados da pesquisa por “Intelligence in Matter” – USP – Universidade de São Paulo

https://www.esalq.usp.br/lepse/imgs/conteudo_thumb/Intelligence-in-Matter.pdf

Sorry, just more hand waving. Do you have anything of substance at all? You are merely repeating the incredibly innocuous "Look at the trees!" argument.

Every organism has the vital life functions/systems essentially required to fit perfectly in its environment. Every organism plays an important role in the overall ecosystem functioning. I’m not making any claim. This is simply an observed fact.

Nope, that is just a claim on your part. And a rather ignorant one. Nothing fits "perfectly" into its environment, and that is actually a good thing. If you want a serious discussion bring up points one at a time. Otherwise I will just laugh at most of your failures.

The purpose is seen/evident. this is not the issue. The issue is the empty claim that observed design/purpose doesn’t have/need a designer but rather it’s a random product of slowly interacting entities. What is the basis for this claim? If you don’t see a designer, if you don’t understand the nature/mechanisms of the designer it’s not by any means evidence that the designer doesn’t exist.

You never seek independent evidence for the cause; the effect itself is always the evidence for the cause. If you observe a very complex functioning system, you logically infer that design/intelligence is involved even if you absolutely have no evidence/knowledge of the designer or the creation/fabrication process. The complex functioning characteristics of the product (the effect) is the evidence for the designer (the cause) even if you neither know nor can see the designer. If you don't agree that the effect is evidence for the cause, then you need to demonstrate your reasons.

No, no one has ever been able to show a "purpose". What we observe are conditions that match exactly what is predicted by evolution and creationists cannot even make a proper model.

Once again, if you are serious try discussing one point at a time.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You don’t read or understand and just dwell in denial.

Didn’t I specifically mention line of evidence # 2 and # 3 in my post #2637 and #2625 and also provided a summary in #2625 (last item)? You may also see “conclusion of study” and "conclusion" at the end of the article

Near-Death Experiences Evidence for Their Reality - PMC (nih.gov)

(462) "Hidden Beyond the Veil" - Documentary - Jeffrey Long, M.D. - YouTube

NDERF Home Page

“Indeed, you were heedless of this, Now We have removed your veil and piercing is your sight today” [Qaf: 22]
You do not even understand the concept of evidence. Do you wish to learn?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
If RationalWiki page need improvement, it doesn’t change the fact that Infinite regress is a logical fallacy. Didn’t you see the other link (logicallyfallacious.com)? We shouldn’t argue about the basics.

Homunculus Fallacy (logicallyfallacious.com)

Infinite regress/ homunculus fallacy is a logical fallacy, the argument proposes an explanation, but the mechanism proposed stands just as much in need of explanation as the original fact to be explained--and indeed it stands in need of the same kind of explanation.

Infinite Regress (palomar.edu)

See # 56 of the thread “Infinite Regress” for more info.

Infinite Regress | Page 3 | Religious Forums
Tell us exactly how this applies to the universe? I am willing to bet that your argument will fail because you will employ a special pleading argument, among others.
 
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