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Darwin's Illusion

LIIA

Well-Known Member
So what? It is not evidence for your beliefs. Do you know why?

so, we agreed on the fact that you kept denying. and no, it has nothing to do with my beliefs.

we really didn't need all these games/tricks to finally admit a simple fact, an ethical debate would be appreciated.

Thanks

have a good night
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
so, we agreed on the fact that you kept denying. and no, it has nothing to do with my beliefs.

we really didn't need all these games/tricks to finally admit a simple fact, an ethical debate would be appreciated.

Thanks

have a good night
No, your claim is still wrong. The point is that even if you are right it does not help you.
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
The vast majority of one's DNA is nonfunctional. A mutation in noncoding DNA will usually have no effect at all.

And you are conflating purpose and function again.

totally false.

that is an obsolete science, we discussed that before, you don't pay attention. it's a little late but really you need to wake up.

you're playing semantics game again, sorry, not interested

good night
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
totally false.

that is an obsolete science, we discussed that before, you don't pay attention. it's a little late but really you need to wake up.

you're playing semantics game again, sorry, not interested

good night

No, if you claim "purpose" you take on a burden of proof. Evolution doesn't work on "purpose". In evolution all that matters is how a change affects a function. If anyone is playing word games it is you. You are trying to sneak a god into the discussion when there is no evidence of a need for a god.

Perhaps that is why you do not like reality. It makes your version of god superfluous.
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
No, your claim is still wrong. The point is that even if you are right it does not help you.

I'm right and you're not trying to debate ethically.
help me for what? I said many times that this kind of binary thinking is a false dichotomy. I guess you will never get it.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I'm right and you're not trying to debate ethically.
help me for what? I said many times that this kind of binary thinking is a false dichotomy. I guess you will never get it.
No, I am not the one that is not debating ethically. Watch the false accusations. What you posted is reportable.

You need to learn what is and what is not evidence. At best you only made a "So what?" argument. That is an argument so weak that it can be refuted with a So what?
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
No, if you claim "purpose" you take on a burden of proof. Evolution doesn't work on "purpose". In evolution all that matters is how a change affects a function. If anyone is playing word games it is you. You are trying to sneak a god into the discussion when there is no evidence of a need for a god.

Perhaps that is why you do not like reality. It makes your version of god superfluous.

Can’t you follow a simple argument without some fallacious games?

In #2780, you claimed “The vast majority of one's DNA is nonfunctional”, I’m telling you this is an obsolete science, why you shift the goal posts to argument about God and play some semantics game with function and purpose? Sorry, got to go now
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
No, I am not the one that is not debating ethically. Watch the false accusations. What you posted is reportable.

You need to learn what is and what is not evidence. At best you only made a "So what?" argument. That is an argument so weak that it can be refuted with a So what?
So what?

good night
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Can’t you follow a simple argument without some fallacious games?

In #2780, you claimed “The vast majority of one's DNA is nonfunctional”, I’m telling you this is an obsolete science, why you shift the goal posts to argument about God and play some semantics game with function and purpose? Sorry, got to go now


LOL!! Can you start a post without false accusations?

And no, the fact is that the vast majority of DNA is nonfunctional is still accurate. I know which argument you are going to try to make. It failed.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Yeah, there are jumps. 12345 789. Now there is a jump. But we can easily surmise that it must have been 6.
That is how Mendeleev postulated the existence of germanium (17 years), gallium (6 years) and scandium (10 years). Figures in bracket indicate the number of years since Mendeleev postulated their existence and when they were actually discovered.

Similarly Einstein predicted gravitational lensing in 1936 but it was first observed only in 1979, 43 years later.
The existence of Boson as predicted in 1925 but it was finally discovered only in 2012, 87 years later. There is a process to science.
RNA to DNA also is a jump and I am sure, science will be able to fix that in time.
 
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TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Yes, it’s irrelevant and your 2 billion claim was wrong.

I didn't assert it was 2 billion. I said LUCA could have been 2 billion. I was just making the point that LUCA need not be the first living thing.


You didn’t get it. You just demonstrated my point. Everything you said is an unevidenced speculation. Even your irrelevant speculation is logically flawed.

If LUCA came from first life A, then all life came from A. if this is the case, then what is the reason why A cannot be called the last common ancestor?

It's explained in the very quote you are replying to.
The "L" in LUCA stands for LAST.

In my hypothetical example, A3 would be the LAST common ancestor.

Here is the definition of LUCA:

The last universal common ancestor (LUCA) is the most recent population from which all organisms now living on Earth share common descent—the most recent common ancestor of all current life on Earth.

Note it says "..of all CURRENT life on earth".
This does not include all species that went extinct.
In my hypothetical, the branches A1 and A2 have gone extinct. They are dead-ends.

:rolleyes:

You don’t get it. The point is that life was never explained, neither by the ToE nor by Abiogenesis.

You are just stating the obvious.
Yes, we've established already that the origins of life hasn't been solved.
I didn't require you to inform me of that.
It's pretty common knowledge.

Again, the ultimate goal is to explain life not merely the diversity of life. Life was never explained.

You keep repeating this as if you are somehow scoring points by doing so.
Just FYI: you aren't.

We all know that the origins of life remains largely an open question.
With respect to evolution, it’s a false speculation/misinterpretation of the observed directed adaptation. Adaptation is never a random process; it’s always a function of directed mutations. See # 2330 and #1245.

Darwin's Illusion | Page 117 | Religious Forums

You keep asserting this. The evidence says otherwise.

Not true, many blind followers of evolution don’t understand the fact that evolution doesn’t explain life and that life was never explained. Many are not even aware of the specific details of the ToE or Abiogenesis

In my experience, this is only true for people who have no clue about the theory.
Anyone with a minimum of education in biological evolution knows better.

In any case, I don't see the point about trying to argue against an established scientific theory by pointing at people who are ignorant of what it says.

Life does exist but neither Abiogenesis explain it, nor it randomly evolves, life adapts because of directed mutations.

And again with the bare assertions that fly in the face of evidence.


Yes, origins of life are out of scope of evolution theory. My point again is the false notion that life was explained through the ToE or Abiogenesis. The problem of life was never resolved.

Then perhaps you should point that out to those who are ignorant of the science and believe such.
You may start with just about every creationist.

I’m complaining about the false notion that we have the answer. We simply don’t.

Nobody with a minimum of education in biology says otherwise.

The central assumptions of the modern synthesis are false. See #781.
Life doesn’t evolve, life adapts.

:rolleyes:

Adaption = evolution.


Absolutely false. mutations are never random.

More bare assertions.

There is no evidence that advantageous mutations emerge accidentally among endless other non-advantageous mutations that gets eliminated by selection. If you don’t agree, demonstrate your reasons.

Every newborn has mutations.
Most are neutral (ie: don't have any effect on fitness)
Some are harmful (ie: have negative effect on fitness)
Some are beneficial (ie: have positive effect on fitness)

The totality of these are statistically consistent with being random with respect to fitness.

Now it's your turn. Demonstrate that mutations are directed.
If true, you should have no problem showing a clear statistical signal that mutations always promote increased fitness.

I already know you won't be able to though.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
The predictions of gradualism and random change are contradictory to the real-world evidence.

No, they aren't. Your wording is a bit off and ambiguous though....

I already addressed the "gradualism" part when I replied to your quote mining from Gould concerning PE.
There's the pre-PE idea of "gradualism" where it refers to evolutionary change following a relatively constant rate of change through the ages. And then there's "gradualism" in the sense of speciation happening gradually and not overnight. As in: a non-human primate never gave birth to a human. Instead, non-human primates gradually evolved into humans over many generations, with the rate of change through time not being constant as per the explanation in PE.

Secondly, evolution is not just "random change". Evolution has random components, but the overall process isn't random. Specifically, natural selection isn't random. It's not "random" that natural selection favored white fur in bears that live at the pole against a white background of snow, for example.

The process isn't random and neither is the output. Only the input is.
Random input filtered by a non-random process yields non-random output.

You fail to understand the magnitude of the prediction, what it entails and the rule of the statistical significance of evidence to establish a valid inference.

Evolution predicts that IF fossils are found (there's no guarantee of that at all, as explained already), they should make sense for a history of evolutionary change. So we expect to find transitional fossils.
And that's exactly what we find.

IF we find fossils of a lineage that are far enough removed from one another (millions of years), then we should be able to see evolutionary progression that makes sense. And that's exactly what we find.

For example

upload_2022-11-16_13-37-31.png



You don’t even understand what gradualism or random change means.

The irony is through the roof here.

It’s an absolutely ridiculous mathematical impossibility. there wouldn't be enough material or time in the whole universe for nature to try out all the possible interactions even over the long period of billions of years of the alleged evolutionary process, even for a single species.


I don't even know how to respond to this absurd claim.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member



Function is purpose.

No.

It’s not a game of semantics

Indeed it isn't. So stop playing it.

Function is the purpose for which something is designed or exists

Nonsense. And incredibly easy to refute. So easy that I wonder if you have actually thought about this for more then 2 seconds.

The purpose of a thing, is what it is intended for. Its goal. Its target. Its aim.

Function is how it is being used.

For example, I have this doorstop at home:

upload_2022-11-16_13-48-4.png


It's purpose is to place it in front of a door to keep it open and prevent wind from slamming it shut.
It's current function however, is to create weight on a broken puzzle piece that I just glued.


Things can have function without purpose.
I could also have grabbed a random purposeless rock from my garden to create the weight. I would have given a purposeless rock a function.

Things can also have purpose without function.
If a thing isn't being used any which way, then it has no function. Even if it has purpose.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
“The vast majority of one's DNA is nonfunctional”
Even many of the neurons in brain are not fully-functional (we have 86 billion of them). Evolution has put a huge reserve in all our body functions. LIIA, you are not using all the capabilities that evolution has provided to you. ;)
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Even many of the neurons in brain are not fully-functional (we have 86 billion of them). Evolution has put a huge reserve in all our body functions. LIIA, you are not using all the capabilities that evolution has provided to you. ;)
It also has done the opposite and given us things that are relics from a distant past which today are actually just a hassle or meaningless curiosities.

Like goosebumps. Goosepumps are actually the result of our skin trying to put our body hair up. Only we are pretty much naked now. Our skin is trying to erect hair that we have lost a long time ago.

Or like so-called wisdom teeth. To make room for our expanding brains, other parts of our head had to shrink. Like our mouth. So now, we have mouths that are actually too small to properly fit all our teeth. Which is why those back molars can ache like hell and why many people need to have them pulled.

Or our S-shaped spine. We evolved bipedalism but our spine originally evolved to walk on all fours. Through evolutionary tinkering to accommodate for bipedalism, the S-shaped spine was the result of that which as a solution was "good enough" to survive and reach reproductive age. And today, the vast majority of people have to deal with lower back pains at some point in their life, usually when past the age of 50 (which isn't an evolutionary disadvantage because we already reproduced by then). As a design for bipedalism, it is "good enough". But it's far from optimal and thus causes problems later in life.

Or the blind spot in our eyes. All the wiring is actually in front of the photosensitive cells, causing the need for those nerves to cross the retina, resulting in a blind spot. Now our brains need to spend extra energy and resources to "fill in the blanks". From a design perspective, our eyes are actually backwards. Imagine if a Sony engineer designed a camera that way. Putting all the wires in front of the lens and then having to load up additional software for the camera to be able to "fill in the blanks" and thus requiring extra battery resources to run that software. He'ld be fired on the spot. And perhaps then be hired by Apple for his wicked software development skills, while at the same time being prohibited of working on any piece of hardware. :D :D :D


And the list goes on and on and on and on and on and..................................................

Our bodies and DNA are FILLED with such nonsense.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
True, they imagine that the absolute reality must be limited to their relative understanding/perception of it.

We previously discussed consciousness/intelligence at a microbial level and even at atomic and molecular level (#226)

Darwin's Illusion | Page 12 | Religious Forums

but in fact, evidence in recent years also confirmed plant consciousness/intelligence. the studies concluded that plants have feelings and a high level of intelligence. See the link below.

Plant-Consciousness---The-Fascinating-Evidence-Showing-Plants-Have-Human-Level-Intelligence--Feelings--Pain-and-More.pdf (usp.br)

We don't understand consciousness because we alone among God's creatures can't experience it directly. Therefore we have a misunderstanding and misinterpretation of intelligence which we believe is its measure.

There's not really such a thing as "intelligence" at all by our definition. We mistake an event for a condition.

What separates us from other living things and our ancestor species, homo sapiens, is non-metaphysical complex language. Other animals have perfect communication within a species and usually have some idea of communication meaning in other species. They don't lack intelligence, and certainly not consciousness, they merely lack a complex language which can be used to pass knowledge from generation to generation.

It would simply be impossible to understand ourselves, homo sapiens, life, evolution, or much of anything to do with consciousness or life without understanding consciousness; without even so much as a working definition. Life IS consciousness and species don't even exist so bunches of words like "On the Origin of Species" is just word soup in the reality that exists. Everything in the book is nonsense written from a perspective of dead animals and their fossils. It is not science based on the scientific method but rather Look and See Science invented by an individual who lived centuries before any meaningful experiments were conducted in the subject and valued a belief in "survival of the fittest" as those who fancy themselves more fit than more common people still do.

But if any believers even respond to this post they will ignore the substance and attack me personally. I could talk about this stuff in much more detail and show evidence to support it but they would rather repeat their beliefs in the supremacy of man and their ingrained beliefs in the "obvious truism" that the fit survive. Of course there is no gradual evolution and a close look at the fossil record showed this long ago. Without gradual change in species there is no place for or need for "survival of the fittest". "Survival of the fittest" no longer fits in their Theory of Evolution and without it there is no longer a mechanism for how species change. Spoiler alert; it is an off shoot of the individual consciousnesses of the entire "species" which is the abstraction. Consciousness is not an abstraction, but life itself.

Science, real science, has been completely and utterly wrong in the past and it apparently is here as well. Ironically even if Evolution is right then Darwin was still wrong about everything else except "survival of the fittest" that we preserve in a jar right next to Darwin's brain.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
IOW, you can always recognize a design when you see it. Your knowledge of the designer or the lack thereof is irrelevant. It doesn’t change this fact. Its illogical to claim that a design is not designed simply because we don’t have knowledge of the design process or who is the designer. The design itself is the evidence for the designer.

Interesting argument. I'll have to put some thought into it.

I think that the most interesting question in existence is, if consciousness is life then how did its design arise. I believe and have long believed science will someday begin to try to address this question. We probably won't find God not because there is no God but because we can only reduce reality and not see it in its entirety. Who's to say?

I believe I have found a means to put reductionistic science back together again but, then, people don't care.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Yeah, there are jumps. 12345 789. Now there is a jump. But we can easily surmise that it must have been 6. When the fossil at 6 will be discovered, the sequence will be complete. That does not make the progression false.
"evolution is a false speculation": say that a thousand times, it will still remains a denial of reality.

This has been the answer ever since it was noted that there are missing links. But it is not the answer because each changed fossil tends to be found at the beginning of its era at the bottom of a stratum.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
PE has shown us that this rate isn't constant through the ages. It slows down, speeds up, slows down, speeds up, etc. But in both cases (slowed or speed up), change still occurs gradually.

You've been asked dozens of times to show a single instance of gradual change over a long period of time and have never responded.

If we had a complete fossil record of everything I have little doubt you could find evidence for just such a thing for one or two species but the time period would be far shorter than you imagine.
 
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