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Darwin's Illusion

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
I believe that the story of a single universal language for all humans was literally and exactly true and that the version of this story in the Bible is a confused rendition of a speciation event.
Believe whatever you want, but stop posting your radical, extraordinary belief as if it is a fact. It isn't. The biblical story is a story that offers a reason for the variety of human language. It is not a speciation event. Good grief!
We are unlike the previous species in every important detail.
Homo sapiens has been an extant species for about 300,000 years and there is no evidence that anything happened to extinguish us during that period and replace us with your fictional species. There is no reason to consider your grandiose claims as fact.
This is in no way "secret". It makes countless predictions which can be studied and then proven iff true.
No it doesn't. It's just grandiose belief and neither history nor science.
It would also open up a new kind kind of science and will show the true nature of change in species as Darwin had it all wrong.
No it won't. It won't do anything. Your belief is unique and based on past performance, I predict you will just make nebulous claims without any substance or evidence to back them up.
It's not we who are all dead
No, Homo sapiens is not extinct.
; it is the species from which we originated.
Sure. But we are not Homo omnisciencis. We are Homo sapiens.
It was a species that invented the means for survival until we could invent modern science.
That would be us, Homo sapiens.
That means ironically shows the actual nature of change in species.
Since you talk about events involving a species that doesn't exist, it shows us nothing.
 
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Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
No. "Adaptation" is a rapid change in species caused by sudden changes in a niche.
Sigh! No! Adaptation is a change in a population in response to the environment interacting with the population selecting the most fit to survive and provide their traits to subsequent generations. You know, evolution.
There is no such thing as "Evolution".
Sigh!

No! There is no such thing as Homo omnisciencis, sudden change in all living things at all levels, ancient science, ancient language, consciousness equal to life, etc. It is just an imagination resulting in grandiose and extraordinary claims without evidence.
All change in species is sudden
Nope. Well and widely refuted on here and everywhere. Not supported by any evidence or experiment.
and are not caused by "survival of the fittest".
Natural selection is the dominant mechanism driving evolution. Sadly, you are, as usual, wrong!
Obviously "adaptation" has similarities to survival of the fittest but this forces a poor perspective to define it in such a way.
Actually, genetic adaptation is the result of selection and not the mechanism of selection. Adaptation describes evolution, not selection.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
It looks, once again, like it is time to remind people that the terminology used to discuss evolution has definitions that are relevant to the context of the discussion. Personal and secret definitions of technical terminology confuse and obfuscate discussion. Most of us try and maintain openness and consistency in how we use these terms so that we can communicate effectively and get our points across to others.

Using accepted and widely used terminology properly is a rational thing to do in order to maintain the quality of the discussion and the debate.

I'll start with these often misused terms to set the pace. I'm sourcing Wikipedia for some since the information on there is valid, up to date, easily accessible, well-referenced and reasonably clear to layman as well as experts.

Genetic bottleneck.
A population bottleneck or genetic bottleneck is a sharp reduction in the size of a population due to environmental events such as famines, earthquakes, floods, fires, disease, and droughts; or human activities such as specicide, widespread violence or intentional culling, and human population planning.
Population bottleneck - Wikipedia

Since this describes a reduction in population number and genetic variation, it in no way resembles selection used in artificial breeding. A breeder selects traits that are useful to people and tries to propagate those traits into the population. A breeder of border collies does not try to decimate the border collie population in order propagate some new trait they have discovered. The genetic variation and population size of border collies is not reduced. In fact, variation is increased due to the introgression of the new trait and underlying genetics.

A genetic bottleneck is not a speciation event. The species remains the same prior to and just after the bottleneck event.

Adaptation.
Adaptation is an term used to describe several conditions of which only one condition is the adaptation of evolution.

Here I will reference the work of John Maynard Smith in his book describing the theory of evolution.

Physiological versatility is adaptation where rapid physiological adjustment allows an organism to avoid predation by altering its appearance or maintain it's internal environment under stress. Flat fish changing color or me shivering in the cold or sweating in the hot sun are examples. There is no change in my genetics causing or resulting from the adjusted physiology.

The second condition also often referred to as adaptation is developmentally flexible. Gradual changes in structure that better allow an organism to survive in a new environment. Growing calluses on the hands from continuous manual labor that protects the hands from wearing injury is an example. The individual undergoing this change does not have a concomitant alteration of their genes resulting in the altered structure.

The final definition of adaptation is a change in the genes that can proliferate or fix in a population over time under the protection of some relevant selection.

Straight from Maynard Smith. "An animal or plant is genetically adapted to particular conditions if it possesses characters suiting it for life in those conditions, and if it develops those characters in all or most environments in which it is able to develop at all."

An animal that evolves a trait for increased heat tolerance will maintain that trait even if it is placed in a colder environment for instance.

Evolution is not wished away into a cornfield by semantic word games replacing evolution with adaptation. Genetic adaptation is evolution.

Due to the common use of adaptation and that it can describe different conditions it is often a source of confusion for those untrained in biological science. That ambiguity has, as well, been exploited by those intent on using it as a means of misinformation regarding what evolution is.

Maynard Smith, John. 1993. The Theory of Evolution (Canto) 3rd Edition. Pages 32-34.

Biological fitness.
Fitness (often denoted w or ω in population genetics models) is the quantitative representation of individual reproductive success. It is also equal to the average contribution to the gene pool of the next generation, made by the same individuals of the specified genotype or phenotype.
Fitness (biology) - Wikipedia

It is not how athletic or weak an individual is. Nor does it denote cultural issues of wealth or poverty. Nor moral position or judgement.

It is a determination of how traits under given selection enable a net increase in reproductive success of members of a population. If, in a warm environment, those members of the population have genes that provide them with greater heat tolerance, they will reproduce with greater success than those members of the population without those genes. It is not to say that those members without the heat tolerance genes won't reproduce, just that on average under the selection of that aspect of climate, they will reproduce less. Under continued selection, the population will gradually evolve to those members with the genes for greater heat tolerance.

Move that population to a colder climate and the selection shifts it in favor of those with genetics to tolerate the cold.

All individuals are not equally fit. This is a claim without the support of evidence or experiment.

Natural selection.
The modern, and more fitting an proper, term describing the environment as it acts on the various genotypes and phenotypes found in a population.

Natural selection does not mean that the beautiful and strong will survive and the weak and ugly will not. It means that those with traits suiting them for survival in a given environment will have greater fitness for that environment and reproduce more successfully on average.

"Natural selection is the differential survival and reproduction of individuals due to differences in phenotype. It is a key mechanism of evolution, the change in the heritable traits characteristic of a population over generations."
Natural selection - Wikipedia

Here is one experiment among many that demonstrate natural selection in a wild population.
Barrett, R.D.H., S. Laurent, R. Mallarino, S.P. Pfeifer, C.C.Y. Xu, M. Foll, K. Wakamatsu, J.S. Duke-Cohan, J.D. Jensen & HE. Hoekstra. 2019. Linking a mutation to survival in wild mice. Science. 363(6426): 499-504.
https://hoekstra.oeb.harvard.edu/files/hoekstra/files/barrett2019sci.pdf

The environment under discussion is the total environment experienced by members of a population and includes the internal and external as well as the biotic an abiotic aspects. It is not simply the weather.

There is no evidence supporting change in a population is under the direction of the population. This has not been supported by the small body of work to that end and has been refuted by more recent work showing that directed change is actually mis-identified natural selection.

Maisnier-Patin, S. & J.R. Roth. 2015. The origin of mutants under selection: how natural selection mimics mutagenesis (adaptive mutation). Cold Spring Harbor perspectives in biology, 7(7), a018176.
https://cshperspectives.cshlp.org/content/7/7/a018176.full.pdf

At some point I would like to further discuss how making up taxonomy and randomly renaming a species just cause is not science and is only self-serving nonsense that doesn't enhance discussion.
Looks like someone needs to read this post. Here is again.

Adaptation.
Adaptation is an term used to describe several conditions of which only one condition is the adaptation of evolution.

Here I will reference the work of John Maynard Smith in his book describing the theory of evolution.

Physiological versatility is adaptation where rapid physiological adjustment allows an organism to avoid predation by altering its appearance or maintain it's internal environment under stress. Flat fish changing color or me shivering in the cold or sweating in the hot sun are examples. There is no change in my genetics causing or resulting from the adjusted physiology.

The second condition also often referred to as adaptation is developmentally flexible. Gradual changes in structure that better allow an organism to survive in a new environment. Growing calluses on the hands from continuous manual labor that protects the hands from wearing injury is an example. The individual undergoing this change does not have a concomitant alteration of their genes resulting in the altered structure.

The final definition of adaptation is a change in the genes that can proliferate or fix in a population over time under the protection of some relevant selection.

Straight from Maynard Smith. "An animal or plant is genetically adapted to particular conditions if it possesses characters suiting it for life in those conditions, and if it develops those characters in all or most environments in which it is able to develop at all."

An animal that evolves a trait for increased heat tolerance will maintain that trait even if it is placed in a colder environment for instance.

Evolution is not wished away into a cornfield by semantic word games replacing evolution with adaptation. Genetic adaptation is evolution.

Due to the common use of adaptation and that it can describe different conditions it is often a source of confusion for those untrained in biological science. That ambiguity has, as well, been exploited by those intent on using it as a means of misinformation regarding what evolution is.

Maynard Smith, John. 1993. The Theory of Evolution (Canto) 3rd Edition. Pages 32-34.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
It's the creationist version of Simon Says. A kids game. I don't know if there is a cultural equivalent to refer to as an analogy.

Simon says: touch your toes, stand on one leg, etc. If the person doesn't say Simon says and you do what they tell you, you lose.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
It's a shame few understand this.

Relating disparate and unique bits of information to understanding systems and processes and how they all interrelate is a building block of paradigm formation and derives from consciousness itself since it is chiefly pattern recognition which is one of the largest components of consciousness.

I really appreciate your work. You are doing more to dismantle Darwin's illusion than I could in a life time. Science changes one funeral at a time in part because ancient ruins of models ae still inhabited. People can't seem to look out the window and notice there are no longer any walls.
Neither of you have done anything to refute the theory of evolution.

The main theme of Denis Noble says is that a controversy in science means that a theory is refuted and that a personal belief system gets to fill the void. That isn't how it works and nothing has been done to refute the theory.

Your extraordinary and grandiose claims about the theory have done nothing either.

Neither of you post evidence. Both of you just repeat and repeat and repeat the same things over and over and over regardless of what anyone says or demonstrates.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
No. "Adaptation" is a rapid change in species caused by sudden changes in a niche.

There is no such thing as "Evolution". All change in species is sudden and are not caused by "survival of the fittest". Obviously "adaptation" has similarities to survival of the fittest but this forces a poor perspective to define it in such a way.
Your silly attempt at semantic argumentation is noted.

Meanwhile, adaption = evolution.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Neither of you have done anything to refute the theory of evolution.

The main theme of Denis Noble says is that a controversy in science means that a theory is refuted and that a personal belief system gets to fill the void. That isn't how it works and nothing has been done to refute the theory.

Your extraordinary and grandiose claims about the theory have done nothing either.

Neither of you post evidence. Both of you just repeat and repeat and repeat the same things over and over and over regardless of what anyone says or demonstrates.
That's why I mostly ignore them.
I wish a respectable creationist would show up.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
So evidence it isn't the end all and be all of life, since it is controlled by something.

Individuals control their consciousness through free will but their consciousness is controlled by not only the logic (reality) of its wiring but also by knowledge, experience, and chemical processes within its own body. Behavior that causes pain or loneliness, for instance, will become less likely in the future automatically. Behavior that causes pleasure is automatically rewarded. Without pain a squirrel would continually attack an electrified bird feeder until it got all the food or died of internal damage. Without pleasure it might not bother to eat at all.

Without free will life can not exist. If you don't understand consciousness you can't understand life and if you don't understand life it's impossible to understand such highly complex things as how and why species change. Darwin thought "I think therefore I am". He could not have been more wrong.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Life/ consciousness is an exercise in reducing pain and increasing pleasure.

Consciousness is a simple enough thing to define once you strip reality down to proper definitions and acquire the proper perspectives.

You will never understand life peering at it through a kaleidoscope from the crown of creation. You will never understand science if you start with all the answers.

Darwin started with all the answers. And reasoned right back to them.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Nonsense. His case for his theory was carefully built from the evidence (in On the Origin of Species).
Reasoning is always a product of assumptions and evidence is always interpreted in terms of belief.

Real "theory" is by definition a product of experiment.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Reasoning is always a product of assumptions and evidence is always interpreted in terms of belief.

Real "theory" is by definition a product of experiment.
You really don't understand science at all.

Experiment is not always practical and we have to use observations (of course, there now have been experiments in evolution too). One builds hypotheses from evidence (experiment or observation) and then test them against further experiments and observations.

You know, in exactly the same way superstition, religion, and wako personal 'theories' don't.
 
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